Topic: Bondi Beach Terror Attack

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KARL STEFANOVIC: Joining us to discuss it is Liberal Senator Dave Sharma and Federal Member for Wentworth, Allegra Spender. Allegra, in person now, first up. Uh, Tony Burke was here last night, um, with his own security team. And, and was yelled at and heckled. And what is your response to that, uh, with this community feeling anger in some parts?

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: I mean the... This has been a completely traumatic event and people are grieving, people are scared, and people are angry. And so, you know, in due, people do feel let down because there are many people who were worried that this would happen and their worst nightmares have come true. So this is, you know, these are the range of responses at, you know, at an incredibly hard time for people, um, right now. And, and you know, that is, it's, you know, that is I think the situation that we're in.

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SARAH ABO: Have you been making representations to the federal government on behalf of your community? Do you think that their voice is not being heard by the government?

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: Uh, look, I have, you know, this is part of my job. I've spent, you know, a lot of time here yesterday listening to people and, and talking to community members. And my job then is, you know, I think it's a really important part of my job is to go out there and, and, and be very clear with the government as to what are the needs and, and what are the concerns that community have. And I think that's, and that's exactly what my job is.

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SARAH ABO: Why do they feel like they're not being listened to though? Why are they angry at the federal government?

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: Uh, look, I think, you know, let's be, uh, you know, this is, let's come back to this. This is everybody's worst nightmare. There were many people who were desperately afraid that this would happen. And so, um, and, and, and the, it is, you know, there were, you know, people have lost a 10-year-old child. Like, you know, this is, is the worst that anyone can imagine. And so therefore I think that is, um, there is anger there. Um, and, and do, people do feel let down. I think the question now is, is always, what can we do? Um, and, you know, there's frustration I think on sort of the slow response, for instance, to the antisemitism envoy you know, recommendation. These are all the things that people are dealing with and this is I think where we need.

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KARL STEFANOVIC: Well, well, I think that's terribly difficult for the government to explain. Um and, Dave, I'll bring you in there. Uh, 49-point plan, um, it, was six months ago it's been on the Prime Minister's desk. Um, it was something they asked for, something they got, and something they've done nothing about.

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DAVE SHARMA: I think that's right and I think that's a large part of why people are so angry, uh, Carl. It's not the only reason, but this was a special envoy appointed by the Prime Minister under significant public and political pressure, who he asked to write a report. Jillian Segal in good faith wrote that report. It's been with the Prime Minister for five months. Tony Burke was asked about this two months ago when he spoke at the National Press Club, and he reacted with indignation that journalists would presume to ask him which recommendations were being implemented. It's simply not good enough and I think that's a large part of why you're seeing the level of anger directed at Tony Burke that you have seen.

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SARAH ABO: Why hasn't the government acted on it? It's not that hard.

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: Look, I, I'm afraid I can't hear what the Senator's saying, I don't have an earpiece. But I think the, um, you know, I had the same conversation with the Prime Minister a few months ago. I said, "You know, the report has been handed down. The community would like a response." Um, and I know that the government is, is going to respond imminently, it says. And I think that, you know, it is, it's, you know, it should've happened earlier. Um, and that it, and that it is absolutely urgent that it happens now.

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KARL STEFANOVIC: I, I just don't, uh, I can't comprehend why you would ask for an urgent report for something, have the report, and not even bother to respond to the architect of that report. I mean, it's not going to prevent necessarily something like that ... here on Sunday. But give people the. The message is there. This was, this was about them, it's antisemitic behavior. It's a report on antisemitic behavior. And they haven't even bothered to respond to her.

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: Look, I think this is, I think that is a lot of the frustration of the community. I was one of the people, um, who really advocated for the appointment of an antisemitism envoy because this community, you know, it was, it was clear this was an enormous issue in the community before October 7th and absolutely ever since. Um, so this has been a huge issue.

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SARAH ABO: Is it political then?

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: Um, I, look, I, I don't know. Again, it is up to the government to respond.

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SARAH ABO: But you can see it, can't you? I mean, it, it, the government's being criticized for being political about this and there are concerns about losing votes in Western Sydney and so on. Is that their central concern here as opposed to actually enacting the recommendations?

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: I think you, that's a, that is genuinely a question for government. I think the focus has to be, what I am seeking is a response on the report because that is what is important to my community.

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KARL STEFANOVIC: Dave, a, a Jewish friend of yours and mine said to me yesterday, um, "You know, perhaps if, if the Jewish population around Australia was more than .5%, um, perhaps if they were in Western Sydney and they had, uh, a greater concentration, um, of, of a larger religion, then perhaps, um, things would've been done." Uh, do you agree with that?

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DAVE SHARMA: Look, I just, I don't think, and I, I don't want to ascribe motives here to the government, but I just do not think they have ever taken antisemitism with the seriousness it deserves. And it hasn't been for want of warnings, whether it's from the special envoy, whether it's from intelligence agencies, whether it's from people like the former treasurer, Josh Frydenberg, the former head of ASIO, Dennis Richardson. Any number of people have said, uh, "This is where it starts, but if we leave this to grow unchecked, who knows where it will end." And that's, you know, the worst nightmare of, uh, of everyone came true on Sunday evening. And I think we have just not seen the government treat this, the protection of their own citizens, as the highest priority, as it should be. Now, whether that's for political reasons, or whether that's for negligence, whether that's for a failure to grasp what a threat this poses to Australia, I'm not sure, but it is a failing.

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SARAH ABO: One of the government's priorities now, as we know, will be these tough new gun laws that are being pursued after the Prime Minister convened an urgent meeting of the National Cabinet yesterday afternoon. Allegra, there seems to be general consensus that something needs to change when it comes to gun laws.

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: Mm. Look, I think, um, some of these are 30 years, um, too late in terms of, um, the implementation of these gun laws and, you know, people just do not understand how people could have so many guns. Um, again... But I think we need to be careful to make sure that, you know, we say, "Okay, we've fixed, you know, fixed some holes in the gun laws. This would prevented this having happened." And I think that that is really important to say, "We need to fix our gun laws," but that that in itself Isn't enough to protect a community. And I think when I, you know, was talking to so many people last night, people are saying, you know, they don't want to live behind security. They don't want to... Their schools and their synagogues to be able have to, you know, enter into security, have to police to keep them safe. And it is not just about the gun laws. It is much broader than that.

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KARL STEFANOVIC: All right. Yeah. Uh, and look again, John Howard put his on the Port Arthur massacre tragedy, right? And he made huge changes. I imagine if we didn't have that even on Sunday. Um, but Dave Sharma, I wanted to bring you in here. successive governments have probably allowed things to get a little lax in in this area, and I think everyday Australians are going, "Why does guy who lives out in the suburbs, even if he does hunt and fish on the weekend, need six guns?"

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DAVE SHARMA: Yeah. I think I've certainly asked that question myself, Karl, and I think it's something that needs to be examined. I mean, you'll recall after the shooting of two Queensland police officers and an innocent bystander in Queensland there was a promise to update the National Firearms Registry. I understand that still has not been done. Uh, but I think... I mean, it's important to recognize that yes, that is necessary, I think, but it's not sufficient, as Allegra was saying. You know, for a threat, you need capability, but there's also the intent element. And I think if we only address gun laws and we don't tackle antisemitism, we are not addressing the intent element.

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SARAH ABO: there's a tendency, I guess, to be pessimistic when it comes to these kinds of things, Dave. Do you see this as... Do you think the government is able to do both at once, to tackle the gun laws as well as antisemitism or are you concerned that they might be using one as a bit of a distraction?

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DAVE SHARMA: Look, I would be very disappointed and alarmed if gun law reform is the only substantive thing that comes out of this because, uh, you know, that might, um, address one element of this crisis, but we've got to ask ourselves why has so much violence and menace been directed at the Jewish community over the past 26 months without any degree of censure or punishment or, um, legal sanction? And I think until and unless we grapple with that, uh, we are not going to get to the heart of this problem.

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KARL STEFANOVIC: Yeah. All right. you both, uh, representatives of your local communities. Allegra, we spoke to you yesterday. How do you think everyone's holding up? Uh, you would have seen the best and the worst of it over the last 24 hours.

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: Um, so last night I went to two services, one at Chabad Bondi, um, where uh Rabbi Ellie was from, and, um, and, you know, his community was incredibly devastated. And the two messages that came out, um, were really unity and also, um, the celebration of Jewish life and not to be cowered. And I think that is really, really important. Um, and then, and also at Emanuel Synagogue, um, last night, which was again a beautiful ceremony. Um, people, you know, in... are absolutely devastated. It is the Jewish community, but it's also the broader community. There were people, all sorts of Australians and tourists actually, running for their lives on Sunday. And so the trauma around this, um, is going to take many, many years, I think, to, you know, to manage and to deal with. Um, but I think people want... You know, people are grieving and angry. People want to see key action and that's, for me, the key focus I have, um, in terms of holding the government to account is sort of accountabilities, actions, and timelines because I think this is what we have been missing in relation to action, particularly on antisemitism, and that's where I think it's most important to be going right now.

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SARAH ABO: You would have seen, of course, the floral tributes here behind us that have been growing every day. and the people who are still and will continue to for days and weeks, you know, and I think some of the messages that we read, you would have read some of them, Dave, you probably haven't had the chance to catch up on all the messages that we've been seeing here. But one of them that struck out to Carla and me this morning was about how love survives evil and it should be the focus rather than the hatred that we're seeing at the moment.

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DAVE SHARMA: Look, uh, the Jewish people are incredibly resilient, um, and, you know, given the history they can only but be that given what they've survived and what they've, um, been through. And I admire that spirit greatly. But I would also caution you, I mean, Jewish people are devastated by this, and many of them, frankly are trying to ask themselves the question, "Is Australia still a safe place for us? Uh, can we build a home here? Can we build a life here? Can we raise children here? Do we need to look at a plan B?" And I think should be heartbreaking for us as Australia, a place that has given, a home to Jewish people for well over 200 years, that has celebrated their achievement, that has embraced everything they've contributed to our society. The fact that one community is being left feeling so unsafe and so unwelcome they're thinking about leaving is a devastating indictment of the point at which our nation has reached.

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KARL STEFANOVIC: And just finally on that, Allegra, um, Dave was talking about how it is an indictment, um, the fact that, um, the Jewish community here just don't feel safe. Um, you know, some have gone back to Israel because they feel safer there. How do you make them feel safer now given what's happened?

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ALLEGRA SPENDER: Mm-hmm. I think we have so far to go, um, as, uh, country to make the Jewish community feel safe. Um, but I do think, um, this is why I think, you know, we cannot... you know, this is, I think, one of the darkest days of, of the country's history on Sunday. We need to take... this needs to be a step change in terms of our expectations of our community. I believe we can do because I think that Australians want everyone to feel safe. I think Australians want everyone to belong. and we don't care about your faith, your sexuality, your gender, you know, your, your ethnicity. We want all Australians to feel safe and belong. So, I think we have to build from that common ground. Um, we need to recognize, I think, our shared and common humanity. Mm. And, you know, and let's, let's be honest, these were Islamic extremists, um, who, who did this, and there was a Muslim man who saved more people than anybody else. That's, that is a perfect example of why we judge people on their individuality, not on the basis of their religion or anything else. And so, I think we need to come back to the common ground that holds us together. We need to, you know, stamp out and, and push out extremism of all forms. Mm. and I do believe Australia can do this, but this is a really hard moment, and it's one that we must see through.

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KARL STEFANOVIC: A friend of mine said to me yesterday, "Can the beaches just be about fish and chips, burning your feet in the sand, getting dumped by a wave? Not this.” The job's ahead. Allegra and Dave, appreciate your time today.

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