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Transcript

E&OE.......................

NATALIE BARR: Back to our top story this morning. The government has announced that Australia will recognise the state of Palestine next month as the UN General assembly meets in New York. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese says the historic decision offers the best hope of ending the war in Gaza following similar moves by the UK, Canada and France. Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has hit back at that announcement, calling the position she shameful. For more, we're joined by Dave Sharma, Liberal Senator and former Ambassador to Israel, and Gamel Kiir, Secretary of the Lebanese Muslim Association. Morning to both of you. Jamel, we'll start with you. The destruction we've seen take place in Gaza, absolutely heartbreaking. What does this announcement mean to you?

GAMEL KHEIR: Well, first of all, we'd like to congratulate the Prime Minister and the Australian government on taking such a brave and courageous decision. And this is long overdue. The Palestinians, like every other human, has the right to self determination and a country to call its own and to live in dignity, which has been denied to them. And more to the point, the more shameful act is the fact that people seem to deny that there's a genocide happening. And to call the Australian government's decision shameful says a lot about the person calling it shameful.

NATALIE BARR: Gamel, one of the criticisms is that a deal should not have been done without the release of the hostages. What do you say to that?

GAMEL KHEIR: Well, let's go back to the hostages and the ceasefire. The hostages were being released under the original ceasefire till Israel decided to unilaterally decide to end the ceasefire and then on top of that decided to annex the west bank and Gaza. So, uh, it's pretty hard to sort of blame the other side to say release the hostages when Israel continues on its path towards total domination of the Palestinian land of what's left of it.

NATALIE BARR: Okay, Dave Sharma, the PM says this is humanity's best answer, uh, to end the violence. Do you think that's true?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I wish that were the case, but it's not, unfortunately. Um, you know, the Prime Minister said yesterday that this announcement will help secure a ceasefire and move towards a two state solution. Much as I would like to see both of those things, I think this does quite the reverse. What it does is encourages Hamas to continue fighting and continue to hold the hostages because they are making political objectives and it weakens moderate Palestinian political actors who are interested in a negotiated two state solution, strengthens the hands of extremists like Hamas.

NATALIE BARR: Well, he said in his deal yesterday, and he's coming up, there will be no, Hamas in the deal with the Palestinian Authority. And there will be free elections. What do you say to that?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, he's going to announce recognition next month at the UN General Assembly in September. Neither of those things will have happened by then. What's he going to do? Is he going to say, I'm going to withdraw recognition in six months time? The truth is that this is an unconditional recognition of a Palestinian state. The Prime Minister should be upfront enough to just acknowledge that fact.

NATALIE BARR: So Hamas will run free.

DAVE SHARMA: Hamas is not going to look at what Anthony Albanese said yesterday and said, all right, time's up, guys. We better retire from the field. To their mind, this wave of international recognition, and it hasn't just been Australia, the UK, Canada, France and others, is, is a vindication and a validation of their terrorist attacks on 7 October and their uncompromising position with respect to a cease fire. So I know people want to see a cease fire. I know people want to see a two state solution.

NATALIE BARR: They want to see the end to the kids dying and starving.

DAVE SHARMA: And I do as well. But this is a lever that we pulled which might give us some sense of domestic satisfaction. It is ultimately not going to advance either of those two goals.

NATALIE BARR: Yeah, Gamel, the major criticism here is that, you are rewarding, this deal is rewarding a terror organisation. Hamas got what they wanted.

GAMEL KHEIR: Well, no, I denied that altogether. I mean, the Prime Minister went out of his way and all the. All the 140 countries that have recognised the Palestinian state have categorically stated that it's conditional. Now, for this scaremongering that goes on with the Israeli lobby and those on the right side of politics who try to play this game as if Hamas are somehow in control of the situation again, is scaremongering. Seventy years of this occupation has told us that we cannot go down the same path anymore. Hamas will not be part of it. I mean, I don't know what more can be said. The Prime Minister and the 140 countries have made that conditional. Now, for this scaremongery to keep on going is to deny the fact that there's a genocide happening and there's, uh, 60,000 dead and there's starvation happening in Palestine. You cannot play this game anymore. People see through it.

NATALIE BARR: Jamel, last question. When will the hostages be released then?

GAMEL KHEIR: Well, the hostages will be released. I mean, it's not for me or for Mr Sharma to go into the mind of Hamas, but this recognition of Palestine goes a long way towards ending this, um, this occupation and, and to the same degree, releasing those hostages. But I wish I could have answers. I don't have the answers, but 70 years tells us we can't go down that same path anymore.

NATALIE BARR: Okay. We thank you both for your time. We know this is a very difficult subject for a lot of Australians to understand. And both sides are very, very complicated and very emotive. So we thank you for your insight today.

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