E&OE.......................

CHRIS KENNY: Let's go down to Canberra now and catch up with the Shadow Assistant Minister for Treasury. That is Dave Sharma. Dave, good to talk to you again. Big focus climate and energy policy. I'll get onto that in a moment, but first up, the Prime Minister is overseas again. Now, as a former diplomat, you'd knowhow important it is for him to get to the ASEAN summit and the like, but not all of his travel has been necessary, has it? The bloke’s out of the country more often than he’s in it.

DAVE SHARMA: Look, he has been overseas a lot. He did go to the UN in New York. He did a six-day trip to China but didn't stop in Japan or Korea. I do view these regional summits, so the Pacific Islands Forum, East Asia Summit, and APEC a little differently because they are regional forums where heads of government are and where Australia needs to be represented. But I think some of the other travel has been more discretionary in nature rather than these.

CHRIS KENNY: Yeah, too long in China. Six days in China is too much. It's almost, it's just kowtowing. All that time at the UN to do a horrible thing, that is recognize a non-existent state, and I was surprised, that he holidayed overseas. I thought you'd want to stick around when you've got some holidays in the country. I think that's a good advice for all prime ministers. But let me move on to other issues and, and the climate and energy debate. Now, we're getting all sorts of angles from the Nationals and the Liberals. Everyone's got their two, two cents worth on this policy, but what interests me is that it's coinciding now, this debate, with this Back Australia Plan, and everyone's trying to support Australian manufacturing and Australian industry and buy Australian. There's an obvious link between these two issues. everybody from every side of politics and all political ideologies wants to support Australian manufacturing. Well, you'll never get recovery in Australian manufacturing unless we lower electricity prices, surely.

DAVE SHARMA: I think that's right, Chris, and I think our energy prices were once a comparative advantage for Australia, an area where we were highly competitive. If you look back 20years ago, for instance, our electricity prices were one-quarter that of Japan. Today, 20 years later, Japan's electricity prices are cheaper than Australia's. So, if you want to think about why Australian manufacturing has been, manufacturing has been hollowed out, but also why any number of things is more expensive, from food on the supermarket shelves to the cost of clothing. Energy is an input into every economic activity of human life, and high energy prices in Australia, because of this mismanaged transition by the Labor government, are being felt by all of us and being paid for by all of us.

CHRIS KENNY: Isn't this theanswer to the energy question though? Is that, that we should focus on priceand reliability rather than focusing on emissions? under the government's plan,under a lot of government's plans over the past two decades, it's been reducingemissions has been the number one priority rather than providing affordable andreliable energy.

DAVE SHARMA: I, think that'sright. I think this Labor government has lost sight of those other objectives.They've pursued emissions reduction, regardless of the cost, regardless of theimpact at whether it's on rural communities or whether it's on the prices thatpeople are paying. And they've lost sight of the fact that we are, you know,about 1% of global emissions. So whatever our emissions envelope is, it's notgoing to change global concentrations of CO₂. Now, I'm supportive of technologythat reduces emissions provided it's cost competitive with the alternativesources. So I think we need to be technology agnostic here, as they say, and weneed to be focused, laser-focused on getting prices down.

CHRIS KENNY: Does that meanthat you have to get rid of the net zero by 2050 target though? I mean, there'sa lot of focus in this debate, uh, on, on the term net zero when really theissue is 2050, isn't it? Because if technology develops, and, uh, we all hopeso, then, then, then the aim of being net zero, that is not putting anyadditional CO₂ into the atmosphere than we take out of it. Obviously, that's agood aim, but to say that we're going to have to do it by 2050 is the problem,isn't it? Because we're having to rush with all sorts of technology that isunproven.

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I don't have any problem with it as an aspiration, but I don't think it should be dictating policy, you know, 25 years in the preceding period. I mean, yes, when the technology becomes available, when things like direct air capture are commercially viable at scale, when carbon capture and storage is commercially viable at scale, when we've got alternative fuels for aviation, when we've got ways to lessen methane emissions from agriculture, then net zero will be possible. And certainly we should be aiming in that direction, but I don't think we should be handicapping ourselves or putting constraints upon ourselves in the meantime to meet a goal for which the technology is not yet available.

CHRIS KENNY: Now, wanna dipinto your expertise, foreign affairs again now as a former Australian Ambassador to Israel and this, uh, news that's been broken overnight from Israel where Mossad, the, uh, Israeli intelligence agency has named the man they believe responsible for the organizing some of the attacks, the antisemitic attacks around the world, including here in Australia, such as the fire bombings of the synagogue, the Adass Israel Synagogue in Melbourne, and also, uh, Louis' Continental Kitchen in Sydney. Mossad say this is Sardar Ahmar was the commander in charge of all this. He's a member of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. This probably doesn't surprise us, but what do we do with that information now as a country? We've already expelled the ambassador. Is there anything further that Australia could do?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think this shows us two important things, Chris. One is the valued intelligence relationship with Israel. I mean, Israel has uncovered a network that has been used to target and risk the lives of Australians in terrorist attacks on our domestic soil. So the idea that we should be downgrading or diminishing that relationship, something the Albanese government has pursued, when that relationship helps keep Australians safe is just unbelievable. I think it's been the height of irresponsibility by the Albanese government. The other thing is that something the coalition has been calling on for well over two years now, the listing of the IRGC as a terrorist organization, something the Labor government refused to do, something they're now promising to introduce legislation to enable to happen. We should have done this a long time ago because the proof is here hiding in plain sight.

CHRIS KENNY: Yeah, the proof is here. They've conducted terrorist operations in this country. That's what these fire bombings were. So how long will it take to get them listed? And what difference will that make on the ground in Australia?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think the government is committed to introducing legislation this week. I've seen a draft of the legislation. Certainly, the coalition will cooperate with the swift passage of that legislation. As I said, I think it's happening later than it should be, where, where shutting the gate after the horse has bolted, but it's an important step to make sure this doesn't happen in the future. And that will allow our intelligence and security and law enforcement agencies to basically be more proactive in monitoring the activities of the arms of the Iranian state and making sure that they are not planning or financing or fomenting further terrorist attacks on our soil.

CHRIS KENNY: Thanks for joining us, Dave. Appreciate it. Liberal Senator Dave Sharma there live in Canberra.

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