Topics: Palestinian statehood

E&OE.......................

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CHRIS KENNY: Let's catch up now with the Liberal Senator for New South Wales and former Australian Ambassador to Israel, Dave Sharma joining us in Sydney. Dave, I've got to get your reaction from this. I want you to place yourself, uh, in your old job. If you're the Australian ambassador, uh, in Israel at the moment, what message do you give, uh, to the Israeli government and uh, what reception do you think you get in response?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, if I was still in that role, I would have advised very, very strongly against taking this decision. I would have warned about the consequences for the bilateral relationship. But importantly I would have made this point that it's not actually going to make any difference. It's not going to make the creation of a Palestinian state any more likely. It's not going to accelerate the conclusion of a ceasefire. In fact, it's going to do just the opposite – make a ceasefire harder to achieve. And it's not going to do anything to address the humanitarian situation in Gaza. It's ultimately a meaningless gesture which flies in the face of past Australian diplomatic practice, but also overturns decades of bipartisanship around this question.

CHRIS KENNY: Well, it is meaningless on the ground. Of course. I agree with you wholeheartedly. It won't make any difference to the aspirations of Palestinian people or the delivery of peace and security and humanitarian aid in the region. But what does it do to us diplomatically? What do you think the Americans, for instance, will make of this change in posture from Australia?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, it positions us with, I guess the progressive group of countries in Europe and the sort of non aligned countries that have recognised a Palestinian state. But it's certainly not where we have traditionally been. Traditionally Australia has been a very strong supporter of Israel's right to exist. Yes, we've supported a two state solution, but we've always recognised that that can only come about in a way that contributes to peace and security in the region if it's a negotiated two state solution. And we've supported American diplomatic efforts to that end. But it seems that we are breaking with that now, and we are going to go for gestures over substance and we're going to look at domestic politics rather than how can we actually advance interests on the international stage.

CHRIS KENNY: Well, we have governments and leaders like Albanese who constantly want to talk down Australia's role. And I don't want to overstate our role in the region, but we've been a strong and loyal friend over time to Israel. But the alliance with America is so important to us. Now, of course we're much smaller, but we've been a significant nation. And when they're stuck on their own, as they are now supporting Israel, the moral support that can come from Australia through diplomatic channels and our votes at the US and the UN sorry, is important, isn't it? Because it gives the US some, some alliance support. And so it costs us nothing except standing up for our values. Yet it helps to deepen the alliance and we're throwing that away at a critical time, surely.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I think that's right. I mean the US has always followed and quite closely coordinated with us our position on Middle east and Israel resolutions and the like and our position in international forum at the, and I remember both from my time in Washington serving as a diplomat, but also my time in Israel as an ambassador, that Washington appreciated and valued Australia's support for their long standing positions and interests in the region. It's clear that we are no longer going to be there for them as a dependable ally, at least when it comes to these issues in the Middle East. And I think, you know, that's to the detriment of our national interests. And I don't actually see anything that is being advanced for our national interest by this decision.

CHRIS KENNY: Yeah, all pain, no gain there. Let me just share with you and the audience some of what the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had to say. [recording played]. So very clear what Netanyahu was saying there. But tell me, Dave Sharma, Australia's action is not taken unilaterally. It's in concert with the uk, with France, with Canada. Will it have an impact on Israeli policy? Will it have an impact on what Hamas intends to do?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, it is having an impact on Hamas. I mean Hamas has been portraying this concession from Australia, the United Kingdom, France and Canada as a win. They've been saying look at what we've achieved. Look at what the terrorist attacks of 7 October have achieved. It's changed their approach to cease fire negotiations, a cease fire deal which was close. Hamas has now upped the ante and said, well, no, we're not going to give back the hostages until the state has realised we've got our capital in Jerusalem and we're not going anywhere, by the way. So they've pushed back the prospects for peace in terms of Israel though. No, it's not going to change Israel's actions. I mean, fundamentally, a Palestinian state can only come about with U.S. agreement because of the U.S. s position on the Security Council and Israel's agreement, because Israel would need to negotiate final borders and live alongside that. This move whilst it isolates Israel more diplomatically. It's not going to convince them to sign away their security interests. I mean, I think, as Netanyahu said in that same press conference, I'm not going to sell Israel's national security interests for, you know, two minutes of favourable media coverage in the international press. So I think, you know, this shows the emptiness of this gesture and how little it will actually change anything on the ground except make it worse.

CHRIS KENNY: Yeah, thanks so much for your analysis, Dave. I appreciate it.

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