Thursday 14 August 2025

Topics: Palestinian statehood, Gaza, Economic reform roundtable

E&OE.......................

LAURA JAYES: Joining me live now is Liberal Senator Dave Sharma, also former Ambassador to Israel. Dave, thanks so much for your time. So do you agree [with Christopher Luxon], Benjamin Netanyahu has lost the plot?

DAVE SHARMA: No, I don't agree and they’re not words that I would use. But I would also say that between countries that have friendly and long standing diplomatic relations, there are some messages that you seek to pass in private and they're not always the same things as you say in public. And I think this is one of those occasions where if governments have concerns about elements of Israel's conduct to the war it's preferable if those concerns are conveyed in private rather than speaking to a domestic audience the whole time.

LAURA JAYES: Ok, Luxon said he believes that Benjamin Netanyahu has gone too far. Is that a message that your, party might convey privately?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I'm not going to go into what we say privately to Israel, but I think, you know, my party, the Liberal Party, the coalition, wants to see this war brought to an end. We want to see the hostages returned, we want to see humanitarian aid flow into Gaza. We want a better future for the Palestinian population in Gaza, but also the Israeli population. And we want a region that's at peace and security. Now, some of the preconditions of that are not necessarily easy to meet, but the elimination of Hamas as a political and military actor is a key precondition to that. And, you know, I'd like to see that done with the minimum impact on the rest of the population. But clearly the way Hamas chooses to fight this war, the fact that they have refused to give up the hostages, the fact that they've refused to agree to a ceasefire, the fact that they've refused to depart the scene, has made the resolution of this conflict that much more difficult.

LAURA JAYES: We’ve passed the time for diplomatic niceties, perhaps when you see what is happening in Gaza. Yes, you say, Hamas's choice to fight the way the war is being fought at the moment, Israel also has a choice. Would you, would you criticise any, anything that Benjamin Netanyahu has done in the almost last two years?

LAURA JAYES: Well, I think my main criticism would be, I don't have a clear picture of what the post war scenario in Gaza looks like. What is the post war governance arrangement? And I think if that was sketched out more fully by Israel, you know, what is the civil administration that would take over the running of Gaza? How will that be assembled? How will that be deployed? How will that provide security? How will that get buy in from the broader Arab world then? I think the world would be reassured that there is something to fill a vacuum that is left by the departure of Hamas. And I think the Arab League has taken important steps forward by indicating on their own behalf that they don't see a future role for Hamas in Gaza. And indicating, I think, a willingness to work with partners in the region to help fill that vacuum. But, you know, Israel needs to sketch out exactly what that looks like.

LAURA JAYES: Dave, can you just, Sorry, pause for me for just a moment? The Prime Minister has been asked on this very issue, a two state solution.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: What they want is one state. And I notice, in the statement that's made today. Uh, they say that the alleged statement from the person yesterday is someone who's been in prison in Israel sinceOctober 2023 and has no means of communication. What that should be is a warning to the media of being very careful about the fact that Hamas will engage in propaganda. Because what is happening is the international community are united about isolating Hamas, about supporting a peaceful way forward.

JOURNALIST: The opposition has accused you of emboldening Hamas. What do you say the criticisms that you've given them of propaganda victory?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well, what I say is that they shouldn't repeat Hamas's propaganda, uh, because it is Hamas which will engage in propaganda because they are being isolated. Because the world is horrified by the events of October 7th and the world condemns and says, including the Arab League has said, that Hamas must be isolated, it must be disarmed, the hostages should be released and have condemned, uh, what occurred on October 7th. Uh, so I won't be a cheer squad for Hamas and for its statements. What I'll do is say that Hamas should be isolated and uh, everyone, uh, in political life in Australia should be a part of that. And indeed I note uh, that an opposition figure, uh, the opposition leader had this to say in the past. Uh, she supported Palestinian statehood. She said she supported Palestinian statehood, to quote her, because it will give heart to the ordinary people of the west bank and Gaza. She went on to say, we must stand in solidarity with those seeking the non violent path to a secure Israel and an independent Palestine. And she went on to say this. After two generations of strife and war, are uh, we going to admit to our children that their parents could not even find a path to peace, or worse still, that we didn't even try. What the international community is saying now, that there are three generations of people who have suffered, uh, from conflict in the Middle east, both Israeli and Palestinian, uh, that we need to find a path to peace. And a path to peace is through a two state solution. We are seeing the alternative play out as it has been for 77 years. And the international community are saying enough is enough. Hamas must be isolated. We must find a way in which Israel can have security, that is through a recognition by all the states around it of its right, uh, to continue to exist as a majority Jewish state going forward. And there must be the uh, the reasonable uh, expectation of Palestinians, uh, to have uh, not what is going on now. People who look at Gaza, uh, can't just continue to say, we'll just keep doing more of the same, we'll keep having more attacks. Uh, the hostages haven't been released. We need to isolate Hamas, but we do need to find a way forward. There's 147 countries have already recognised Palestine. A range of countries in the west like minded countries, the United Kingdom, Germany, uh, Malta, uh, Italy are making statements and some of those countries like the United Kingdom, France and Canada have made it clear uh, that they want to see a path forward of a two state solution.

JOURNALIST: On your condition? On your condition that Hamas demilitarises. They've shown no intent to do so. None of the Arab League countries seem prepared to step up. In Gaza. Is it the case that the only group that can actually disarm Hamas is the Israeli Defence Force?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: The Arab League have stepped up, they made a very clear statement and the Arab countries in the region uh, have stepped up. Uh, their statement was historic that they made weeks ago and people who followed this debate uh, know how significant that statement was.

LAURA JAYES: Well, that is Anthony Albanese there talking about a couple of things. This leaked document from treasury about some predetermined outcomes for the, uh, economic roundtable next week. He says that is absolutely not the case though. It was just, you know, normal process. But most importantly on Palestine, he went, uh, to the trouble of digging out some old quotes from Sussan Ley about Palestinian statehood. Dave Sharma is back with us. He talked about Palestinian statehood there. Sussan Ley in the past saying after two generations of strife and war, we've got no pathway to peace. Our grandchildren will say, did you even try? So what is the coalition's current position on recognising Palestine and a two state solution, Dave?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I saw that Anthony Albanese had sent his staff and government employees to the trouble of digging through the archives to try and find something Sussan Ley had said. I don't think our position is at all inconsistent with what those comments from Sussan, which must be from a decade or two ago. Yes, we support a Palestinian state that is at the heart of a two state solution, but what is critical is how does this state come about? Will it be a state that is committed to coalition existence and peace alongside Israel? How will you settle important questions like the final borders, the status of Jerusalem, the right of return? And the wisdom in the international community now going back, you know, four decades at least, is that that can only be as the result of a negotiated process. What Anthony Albanese has done here is put the cart before the horse. He said, we're going to recognise the state and we'll figure out all this stuff later. It doesn't work like that.

LAURA JAYES: I'll put to you, if I could play devil's advocate for a moment, the process that you are standing by, negotiations, as you say, for all those issues, have literally been talked about for a couple of decades now. So Anthony Albanese and about 140 nations right around the world now are looking to front run that argument, recognise Palestine, hope that everything falls in, else falls into line. What's wrong with changing tact on that? Aren't you largely of the belief that the same thing, you just got a different process to get there?

DAVE SHARMA: Yeah, but I mean, look, hope is not a strategy, right? This is a case of diplomatic wishful thinking.

LAURA JAYES: So if you were in government Dave, if you were in government, would you be doing anything different to what you were three years ago?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think things have changed dramatically in the region and so yes, we would be doing things differently. But if I can just make this point to you, what has been the most important factor that has derailed past efforts at Israeli Palestinian negotiations. We've had, you know, the John Kerry led effort in the second term of the abortion Obama administration. We had the so called Annapolis effort when Olmet was Prime minister. We had the Camp David process, we had the Oslo process. Usually, not always, but often it has been Hamas or a precursor of Hamas that has basically blown up those negotiations. The last intensive round of two state negotiations, I was there as the ambassador to Israel. They were being led by John Kerry. They were making significant progress. Israel was engaging constructively with them because I spoke to the Israeli negotiators on many occasions. What happened? Hamas kidnapped a number of young Israelis in the west bank and murdered them. And the reaction, the public reaction in Israel was such that there was no point in continuing the talks. Hamas did that on purpose. So I think a precondition of a two state solution is the elimination of Hamas. Now what the Prime Minister has done is said, well, we're not going to worry about Hamas, we'll just pretend they're not there. Well, Hamas is still there and Hamas has been strengthened by his announcement.

LAURA JAYES: So you're talking about you won't recognise Palestine until you see the elimination of Hamas. That's an ideology?

DAVE SHARMA: I'm saying a recognition of Palestine should come at the end of a negotiated outcome between Israel and the Palestinians. Because look, the truth is our recognition of a Palestinian state, Australia, does not bring a Palestinian state about. The only way a Palestinian state can be brought about is through the UN Security Council formally accepting a new member state. The US is quite clear that it would not do that before negotiations. So all this is about, you know, gestures on the Australian part. What we need to focus on is how do we get the two sides back to negotiations which means.

LAURA JAYES: But Dave, do you admit, given your history and your expert knowledge, better than me in this area, what you're talking about is still years, if not decades off?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I would say that, you know, sometimes when a lot of things move in the region, there are a lot of opportunities. I mean, people never thought that Israel and Egypt would make peace until Anmar Sadat became the president of Egypt. Israel made significant territorial concessions, withdrew from the Sinai Peninsula and a peace treaty was made then over four decades ago that has endured to this day. Similarly with Jordan about 30 years ago, similarly with the UAE and Bahrain and Morocco under the Abraham Accords. So there is an opportunity because the Middle East has changed so dramatically in the last few years because actors like Iran have weakened, to actually move this issue forward. But we need to be mindful of what are the roadblocks that have been there in the past and how do we deal with them.

LAURA JAYES: One final question here, Dave. We've seen the deaths of five journalists in Gaza that were targeted by Israel. Israel says at least one of them was the, “head of a Hamas terror cell”. Do you think they should be furnishing the world with evidence to that effect? I would note that they're Al Jazeera journalists. Al Jazeera, funded and owned by Qatar, who is certainly a player in all of this.

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I would like to see a more detailed explanation for the reasons Israel targeted these journalists. I was deeply uncomfortable and displeased. I don't think you should be killing journalists in a war zone. I don't think they should be a target of operations. Israel claims this person was a senior Hamas operative. If so, they should provide the evidence for that.

LAURA JAYES: Do you believe that?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, until I've seen the evidence, I'm not in a position to make an independent judgement, Laura.

LAURA JAYES: It's always good to talk to you. Quickly before I let you go. The productivity commission, you'll definitely want to weigh on this. We had a bit of a leak from Treasury. A few predetermined outcomes there. These things always happen. But what does it tell you about what's going to happen next week?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think it tells me that this is not really going to be a serious exercise in reform because if the government's already determining the outcome, it means they're not open to new ideas, or what might emerge, or consensus or discussions that might happen in the room. And you know, I worry that this is a fig leaf to show that the government is concerned about the problem, but ultimately they don't want to address the problem. Our challenge here is massive. The Reserve Bank just earlier in the week basically downgraded our long run growth forecast because they said that productivity is much, much slower than it has been over the last three decades and it's unlikely to change absent active government policy measures. And the predetermined outcomes that have been cooked up from this summit, one, are not sufficient, but two, don't reflect the scale of the challenge we're facing.

LAURA JAYES: Dave, good to talk to you. Thank you for your patience this morning as well. Appreciate it.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much.

[ENDS]