Topics: Charlie Kirk assassination, immigration, Jacinta Price 

E&OE.......................

HAMISH MACDONALD: Sydney-based Liberal senator, Dave Sharma, is himself of Indian heritage. Good morning to you, Dave.

DAVE SHARMA: Good morning, Hamish. Nice to join you.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Before we get to the Jacinta Price story and the Liberal's relationship with Indian migrants, shocking news this morning about the assassination of this MAGA podcaster, Charlie Kirk. We know America's deeply divided. How worried are you about where this now takes things?

DAVE SHARMA: Oh, look, it is shocking news. It's terrible for Charlie Kirk, and I understand he's married and he has two young children as well, and it's a senseless act of violence. I don't believe people have uncovered a motive for the shooter yet, but I think it's probably highly likely that it's politically motivated violence and that's deeply troubling. We've, we've seen politically motivated violence on the rise around the world in recent years, including in America, and I think it's, you know, it's deeply worrying for the cohesiveness and unity of societies, including such as ours in Australia.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Mm. I guess we're all feeling a sense of things just being a bit divided at the moment, a bit fractious, tempers fraying, you know, locally as well as far away. Do you have a view about how you dial things down?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I don't think I have a unique view, but I think it's important to reinforce some of the fundamental norms that underpin our societies, and, you know, they are... At the heart of a liberal democracy is an agreement amongst the body politic, amongst the citizens to settle political differences of view peacefully by recourse to the ballot box and argument and debate, but never to take, you know, an act of violence to prosecute your political argument. And I think it feels like those guardrails have become more fragile in recent years, and perhaps we haven't spent enough time, I guess, drawing some clear boundaries there about what is, what is legitimate political debate and what is illegitimate political action.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Dave Sharma is a Liberal senator. Dave, Jacinta Price, was this the right decision by your leader, Sussan Ley, to sack her?

DAVE SHARMA: I think it was the only decision that Sussan Ley could have taken after Jacinta failed to express confidence in her leadership. I mean, you can't be part of the shadow ministry or the shadow government or if, if you're in government, the government or the ministry and not express confidence in your leader, be it the prime minister or the opposition leader. That's an untenable position, and that's a, a well-known norm in, in liberal democracies.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Why didn't this happen sooner? Why couldn't the leader force Jacinta Price to make an apology, given how angry Indian migrant voters are with the Liberal Party over this and how offended they are?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I think as Sussan Ley described it last night, she wanted to give Senator Price the time and space to do that herself, but, you know, clearly that was not going to happen. And I think it, it has... The issue, and the damage it has done to us as a party and a movement amongst not only the Indian community but large swathes of the Australian community has been allowed to go on for too long.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Mm. Does your party have a problem with migrants, particularly migrants of different, racial identities?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I don't think we're doing nearly well enough to appeal to them or to explain why we think our values and policy propositions are most relevant to them. I mean, if you look at the figures, I think, of the 50 most diverse seats in Australia, or most multicultural seats in Australia, we hold only two of them. And it's a huge problem for us, of course, politically, but I think more than that, if a large part of the population feels that they do not have political alternatives, if they do not feel an appeal to the Liberal Party, that's bad for our democracy as well.

HAMISH MACDONALD: I am listening to your response, but I just wonder whether it's an answer to a different question. Does your party have a problem with migrants, particularly those from different races?

DAVE SHARMA: No,

HAMISH MACDONALD: Like we heard before the election, your colleague Jane Hume talking about Chinese spies at polling booths. Jacinta Price seems to think that Indian migrants are an issue. I mean, could you, could you understand why voters more broadly might think, "Well, maybe this party doesn't like migrants coming here with different identities?"

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I can say that's fundamentally not true, but if we haven't communicated that well enough, well, I will also accept the fault is on us. I mean, we are a party that's committed to the rights of the individual, to all individuals, of whatever ethnicity, background, postcode, education level, religion, being able to thrive and pursue their opportunities in Australia. And we, you know, we believe fundamentally in the rights and freedoms of all our citizens in Australia regardless of their birthplace. That's at the heart of liberal political philosophy. It's at the heart of what I believe, and it's why I'm a member of the Liberal Party. I'm of diverse background, as you pointed out in your introduction. But yeah, I mean, I entirely accept that some of the comments that my colleagues have made in recent months have been clumsy and have given the opposite impression.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Mm. Do you think there's a fundamental race issue, though, like views about different races within your party that maybe isn't articulated explicitly but underpins this rhetoric that seems to come out from time to time?

DAVE SHARMA: No, I don't believe that to be the case at all, Hamish. And I, I haven't seen any evidence of that myself. I think we need to do a better job at appealing to modern Australia as it looks today with our communication and our policy offering. But I fundamentally do not think that we have anything other than the interests of all Australians at heart.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Um, what do you think your party can do to change the way you talk about migrants? 'Cause Jacinta Price is saying actually there is a problem that she's not gonna be silenced on, and that's mass migration. And migration is a topic that many of your colleagues do talk about a lot. So I wonder what, whether you agree with that or, or what you think the problem is in relation to migration?

DAVE SHARMA: Well look, I think we need to separate out these two issues here. I think it's legitimate and perfectly normal for Australia to be able to have a debate about the best level of migration for this country. And I don't think there's any doubt that levels of net overseas migration in the past two years have been far above historic levels, far above what the government predicted in the budget. And that is putting a strain on infrastructure and, you know, housing, and many other things. Now, that's not to say, though, that we should be singling out particular groups. I mean, the question here is about what is the right volume of migration not what is the right source country of migration. I think we to be careful, including in the Liberal Party, in our language about how we express those views.

HAMISH MACDONALD: But that's where it becomes a bit confusing, right? Because, yes, the numbers did jump up a bit in '22-’23. But that was after dropping off almost entirely during the COVID years of '20 and '21. And they seem to be returning back to around about the levels that were in place every year when the coalition was in government. So, are you saying you're comfortable with those levels of migration or you're not comfortable with those levels of migration?

DAVE SHARMA: So look, in the first two years of the Labor government, their forecasts for net overseas migration were 235,000 for both of those years and, in fact, the levels of net overseas migration were between 400,000 and 500,000. So they overshot their expected amount by about half a million people. Now, that's not insignificant. That's two percent more of the population to have…

HAMISH MACDONALD: Sure. But, but, but those numbers are pretty consistent though, aren't they, with the levels of migration that intake that existed during the coalition's time in government?

DAVE SHARMA: No, the levels we've seen over the last two years have been, you know, almost double the average amount of net overseas migration during the coalition's term in government. Yeah. It was, you know, to put a rough average on it, about 250,000 people a year during the coalition's term in government. It's the last two years of the Labor government, it's been closer to 500,000 a year. Now, in their most recent budget forecast, their forecasts for permanent migration, not net overseas migration, there's a difference here, is 185,000. Now if that is met and, and that is indeed the figure, then I think that's a more sustainable rate. It's a more rate, a rate more in line with our historic averages. But I would point out that over the last two years, that number has been exceeded by a factor of two.

HAMISH MACDONALD: So do you then think there has to be a conversation about mass migration, as Jacinta Price terms it?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think it should always be a topic of conversation about is our migration program meeting Australia's needs? Now, you know, we have always been a country that takes migrants. It brings us immense benefits. It's helped us create the country that we've got today. But there should always be a program about, a discussion rather, about the skills mix, uh, the volume, the regions of settlement, because parts of Australia desperately need more people and parts of Australia, you know, are struggling with high density and too many people. Now, that should always be part of the mix of, you know, a more broader discussion about population. And I think we need to be able to have that discussion without antagonizing or creating a sense that any particular group is being targeted. And I think, you know, I accept that the discussion over the last week has failed in that regard and we need to do better.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Is there a difference between migration and mass migration? Like what are the Liberals talking about when you're talking about this term?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I don't use the term mass migration. I don't think I've heard it before. I'm not sure if it has any particular meaning.

HAMISH MACDONALD: You haven't heard it before? Don't listen to your colleagues a lot? A lot of them seem to use this term.

DAVE SHARMA: But I mean, it's not a term I'm intimately familiar with and I'm not sure if it has a connotation beyond the mere adjective. But I think a discussion about the migration levels is perfectly legitimate to have. I know Sussan and the rest of the leadership team are keen to make sure we have that, but it needs to be a respectful conversation. And I don't think it needs to be... It, certainly shouldn't be directed at any particular group or any particular source country or any particular race or ethnicity or religion. It's about what's in Australia's best interest, mindful that we have always been a country that's accepted and integrated migrants well and it's been to the immense benefit of our nation.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Mm-hmm. Uh, we've heard from a number of Sydney's, Indian diaspora community leaders this week. The, I guess, consistent message seems to be why are the Liberals reaching out to us if they're not actually apologizing, that being Jacinta Price, but also the leader, Sussan Ley. Is there anything you want to say to Sydney's Indian diaspora community this morning?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I'd say firstly I've heard from a number of my friends in the Indian Australian community, including many I'd say who are Liberal Party members who have been, you know, both despairing and hurt by, these comments. And I would just like to reiterate that, you know, I consider myself part of the Indian Australian community. I value and appreciate the immense contribution they've made to Australia, in their communities, in their neighborhoods, in their businesses, in their suburbs. And I think they've been an incredible source of strength for Australia and I welcome them with open arms and I, you know, I think they are model citizens in many respects.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Do you want to say sorry to them for what your party's put them through?

DAVE SHARMA: I'm very happy to. I mean, I can't apologize on behalf of anyone else, but I'll certainly apologize on behalf of the Liberal Party to the extent that I can, and for the hurt that's been caused. I mean, it doesn't reflect our views as a party. Certainly doesn't reflect my views personally. But I appreciate that it's made them feel like they are the target of hostility, which they should never have been put in that position.

HAMISH MACDONALD: Dave Sharma, really appreciate your time this morning. Thank you very much.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much for having me, Hamish.

[ENDS]

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