Topics: Recognition of Palestine, Israel-Gaza conflict.

E&OE.......................

SALLY SARA: Dave Sharma is a New South Wales Liberal senator and Australia's former ambassador to Israel, and joins me now. Dave Sharma, welcome back to Radio National Breakfast.

DAVE SHARMA: Good morning, Sally. Good to join you.

SALLY SARA: I want to ask you about this letter that the opposition leader, Sussan Ley, has written to Republicans in the United States, reassuring them that a coalition government would reverse Australia's recognition of Palestine. Is it appropriate for the Coalition to make an intervention like this?

DAVE SHARMA: It's perfectly appropriate. I'd say two things. Firstly, it's the Labor government that has overturned decades of bipartisan foreign policy consensus on how a Palestinian state should come about. It's not the Liberals, it's Labor that's done that. And secondly, it's perfectly appropriate and normal for opposition politicians to have relationships with parliamentary counterparts in other parliaments around the world. I mean, we're democracies where there is a diversity of political views and a contested political debate. And the suggestion which Foreign Minister Penny Wong seemed to be making, that the debate should be censored or stifled or the opposition wasn't able to criticise government policy, I find to be an extraordinary suggestion.

SALLY SARA: When you're looking at other examples of this, uh, taking place, can you think to another example where an opposition has made an intervention such as this, particularly when a prime minister is overseas?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I mean, I recall when Mark Latham was the opposition leader, he was opposed to Australia's involvement in the war in Iraq, and he made that case publicly and frequently and, uh, probably overseas, I don't quite remember. This was 20-odd years ago, and, you know, we had no criticism with him for that at the time. We disagreed with his policy approach, but certainly he's allowed to air and articulate an alternative view, and that's all that Sussan Ley is doing here.

SALLY SARA: Why do you think it's not appropriate for the federal government to be recognising a Palestinian state right now?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I don't think it's helpful, and I think if you look at the, what they suggest it will help achieve, it's quite the opposite. They think it will help - they claim it will help advance a two-state solution. All it's doing, unfortunately, is hardening opinion on both sides of the conflict, strengthening Hamas, but also, sadly, strengthening hardline voices in Israel's government as well. It's effectively -

SALLY SARA: How does it strengthen Hamas?

DAVE SHARMA: Because it shows to the world, and Hamas, as used in this, in this case, to say, "Look, our strategy is working. Our strategy of the terrorist attacks of the 7th of October, our refusing to countenance Israel's right to exist, that is delivering us recognition from states that didn't previously recognize us." So, for them, it's a vindication of their strategy and it weakens more moderate Palestinian political actors, including the Palestinian Authority in terms of what should be their strategy to achieve a state. I think all this has done is embolden extremist voices and effectively reward Hamas for the terrorist acts of the 7th of October 2023.

SALLY SARA: A number of members of the Palestinian Authority have welcomed this move by Australia.

DAVE SHARMA: I'd expect them to do so because, they've got no choice I mean, look, they would like to see a Palestinian state as well. I would like to see a Palestinian state come about. The opposition would like to see a Palestinian state come about. But our view, and the Palestinian Authority's view, has always been that that can only come about when the attributes of a state are agreed between the two parties to the conflict. That is, you know, the determination of borders, the status of Jerusalem, the so-called right of return of displaced people. and that's the only way you're going to get a durable basis for peace. The truth is, a Palestinian state will not come about unless Israel agrees to it and the United States agrees to it. And this declaration, if you like, does not help move any of those parties.

SALLY SARA: You're listening to Radio National Breakfast, and I'm speaking with Dave Sharma, New South Wales Liberal senator and former Australian Ambassador to Israel. In your view, has the conduct of Israel in Gaza, has that broken international law?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I'm not in a position to make those sorts of judgments. I've seen those allegations made. But I would make the overarching point here was that Israel was attacked on the 7th of October, in an unprovoked fashion. They still have hostages being held, and their war aims, their military aims have been to recover the hostages and ensure that the terrorist group that launched this attack is not in a position to launch such an attack again. That is a legitimate right and exercise of self-defense. Now, Israel needs to conduct itself in accordance with international humanitarian law, the law of armed conflict in prosecuting that. But that is that is a justifiable and, and lawful use of force.

SALLY SARA: Has Israel's military operations and its handling of humanitarian aid in Gaza, have these actions been proportionate and and appropriate?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, again, look, I'm not in a position to pass judgment on that. There are tribunals and...

SALLY SARA: Have you sought advice?

DAVE SHARMA: No, I haven't sought legal advice on this. I mean, this is, these are bodies, there, there's a number of different opinions about this, and I'd say, I would point out that they're quite varied, but on the whole, I believe that Israel has been seeking to conduct itself in accordance with the laws of war. Does that mean they haven't made mistakes from time to time? No, it doesn't. But it's a difficult operating environment because of the way Hamas operates and our own experience as a Western military operating in places like Iraq and Afghanistan tells you that when you're dealing with an embedded terrorist group that uses civilians as shields and, in fact, often emplaces itself within civilian infrastructure, the war environment is very challenging to protect the lives of civilians.

SALLY SARA: Was the cutoff of aid into Gaza on March the 2nd, was that a mistake?

DAVE SHARMA: I believe it was a political mistake by Israel. I mean I don't think they should've cut off humanitarian assistance. They would argue that there was sufficient humanitarian aid there but it was being stockpiled by Hamas. But I think it was a mistake for them to pause the flow of humanitarian aid in about March when the ceasefire collapsed. And I think they have since restored the flow of humanitarian aid. I certainly called on them to do so, and I'm glad they have done that because, you know, the suffering of the Palestinian people within Gaza, all needs to be done that can be done to minimise that suffering. But I would make the point that if Hamas released the hostages and gave up its leadership, then I believe this war could be brought to a conclusion very quickly. And that has been the -

SALLY SARA: - who controls whether aid gets into Gaza?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, Egypt in part because they share a border but also Israel.

SALLY SARA: A UN Commission of Inquiry report found Israel is committing a genocide in Gaza. Do you accept that finding?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I know that finding, but no, I don't accept it nor do, nor do I reject it. As I said, my role as a politician is not to be an international jurist on, whether Israel has abided by laws, and I'm not the spokesperson for Israel. I'll leave that role to others.

SALLY SARA: How do you make policy decisions if you haven't sought advice?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I'd seek advice from a number, a number of different sources. But I would say that -

SALLY SARA: - on the legality, uh, as I asked you previously, had you sought advice on that? And you said no.

DAVE SHARMA: No, I mean, I've, look, I don't commission advice. I'm not in the government, right? I'm, I'm a member of the opposition. But I certainly note all these opinions that are offered, and they are wide and varied. And I, ultimately, these sorts of things, these decisions about the legality and lawfulness will be made sometime after the conflict is concluded. And I think before then, it is premature to be reaching any judgments or conclusions.

SALLY SARA: Dave Sharma, thank you for your time on Breakfast this morning.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much, Sally.

SALLY SARA: Dave Sharma is Shadow Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury, uh, a Liberal senator for New South Wales, and a former Australian Ambassador to Israel.

[ENDS]

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