E&OE.......................

CHRIS BATH: And joining me today, Dr. Gordon Reid, Labor MP for Robertson. Dr. Reid, lovely to have you with us.

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GORDON REID: Thanks for having us.

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CHRIS BATH: Dave Sharma, Liberal Senator for NewSouth Wales. Dave, lovely to have you back.

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DAVE SHARMA: Pleasure to join you.

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CHRIS BATH: And Zali Steggall, the Independent MP for Warringah. Zali, welcome back.

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ZALI STEGALL: Thank you.

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CHRIS BATH: I know it's busy in Federal Parliament, so I appreciate you all jumping in a, in a booth together in Canberra, and being here for us. Let's kick off with the ASEAN Summit. The PM's joined world leaders in Kuala Lumpur. He outlined today that Australia would like to deepen some trade ties with Southeast Asia, a quarter of a billion dollars or so to kick-start Australian investment in Southeast Asia. What do you think Australia's priorities should be here? Dr. Reid, let's start with you.

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GORDON REID: Yeah, look, and it, it's really fantastic to see the prime minister and his, his delegation in Southeast Asia, in Kuala Lumpur, making the case for Australia, and really focusing on the issues, that matter in that foreign affairs context. So, when I look at what Australia's priorities should be in this particular forum, in this multilateral forum, definitely trade and investment, uh, so that economic component, but then also, too, security are the big two things that, you know, I think, um, are being... well, I know are being focused on by the government and by the Prime Minister. And you're absolutely right there. There has been an increase in that, in that economic engagement and there, it was recently announced by the Prime Minister, so, looking at the Investors Asia Pacific, Debt Fund and the, the new Southeast Asian, Public Private Investment Funds. So what, what this is essentially going to do, at the end of the day, it's going to expand the presence of Australian investment, it's going to uh, expand the presence, Australian businesses in that Southeast Asian area, growing trade ties and growing investment. We know that over one in four jobs in the Australian economy is reliant on trade, so it's absolutely vital, that we prosecute Australia's economic interests in forums like ASEAN.

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CHRIS BATH: Dave Sharma, do you think the government's got the priorities right for Australia?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think there's a number of important bilateral meetings that the Prime Minister needs to undertake at this meeting. That's often the way with these summits, some of the more productive and worthwhile meetings happen outside the summit themselves, but with other leaders. There's a new prime minister of Japan, Prime Minister Takeuchi, who is I think, keen to expand the trading relationship with Australia, keen to also resurrect the quad, that's the four-nation grouping involving the US, Australia, India, and Japan, which has, helped stabilize and improve security in the region. And of course, you mentioned earlier, the Prime Minister had a meeting with Premier Li of China this morning. Very important that he did raise, uh, the PLA aircraft's unsafe behaviour recently involving an Australian aircraft operating over international waters.

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CHRIS BATH: Zali Steggall, what do you think the government's priorities should be?

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ZALI STEGGALL: Look, I tend to agree with both comments in the sense of the meetings are important for our, national security in terms of the geopolitical and the stability in our region. Our trade engagement is very important. I think the discussion with Japan is an interesting one. We know that Japan is a, a big purchaser of gas from Australia, but they on sell it at great profit to others, and what I would like to see is the Prime Minister actually leading discussions with, at ASEAN around how do the, we help all countries in ASEAN decarbonize and fast-track their decarbonization. And so rather than getting them onto fossil fuels, really facilitate and, take on that leadership, around the new technologies and new opportunities.

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CHRIS BATH: And speaking of things environmental, the draft legislation to overhaul the, our environmental laws is going to be introduced to the Senate on Thursday. We're, we're still waiting for all the details, but one thing we do know is that Australia's got the worst extinction record on Earth and is losing biodiversity faster than almost every other nation. At the moment, there's a blanket exemption on native forest logging. Does that need to be removed in this legislation? Dave Sharma?

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DAVE SHARMA: I don't know. This isn't my area of expertise, I'll be honest with you. I haven't looked at, I don't think we've seen this as the coalition that is seen the entirety of the..

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CHRIS BATH: Yeah, bits of it, not all of it just yet.

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DAVE SHARMA: Bits of it and not all of it. What we have suggested to the government is, um, they split the bill into two so we could cooperate with them on the less-contentious elements. Um, you know, part of the intent of this review of the EPBC Act is to improve environmental conservation, but also to provide greater certainty for investment and to allow projects to proceed more quickly and with less cost and less delay. So, we would like to cooperate with the government on the less-contentious elements of this legislation, and the more contentious elements, some of which include very high fines, I think we'd like to have a closer look and a more detailed review of those elements, which are, which are new and novel, and some of them did not emerge from Graeme Samuel's recommendations.

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CHRIS BATH: Zali Steggall?

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ZALI STEGGALL: Well, actually, just before coming here, I was in the middle of a cross-bench briefing with, uh, Graeme Samuel, and in fact, um, look, unfortunately we... the government, on one hand, has been fairly shady with what they're proposing. They haven't been willing to share exposure drafts or give real information about what they're proposing, but me... And I should say, I don't support splitting this bill. It's long overdue that we have efficiency and efficacy, um, and a focus on outcomes when it comes to the EPBC, but it's clear we need really clear and strong national environments environmental standards to then be applied in a more efficient way. But the idea that we are not dealing with deforestation is simply ridiculous and negligent from the, the Albanese Government, and we have to talk about climate impacts on the environment. There is a huge gap between where the safeguard mechanism operates on large emitters and all the other applicant sunder the EPBC Act that do have an impact through their emissions on nature, but the government is just steadfastly refusing to acknowledge that.

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CHRIS BATH: Dr. Reid, is there enough in this bill to deal with deforestation?

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GORDON REID: Yeah, look, I mean, what this bill is essentially, it's making sure that we do have those stronger environmental protections and environmental restoration. And like Dave said, making sure that we have, we give industry certainty and we make sure that projects that need to be approved can be approved. And that gives, that gives industry certainty. And I think overall as well what this bill will provide is a greater accountability in this space, um, greater transparency in decision-making. And, you know, taking a few points is, from what, from what Zali said, I think, you know, this is, this is reform, bold reform that only the Albanese Labor Government has been known for over the course of the last term and now this term. We are committed to environmental preservation. You gave the statistics, leading in to this question about record numbers of extinction and the like, so we need to make sure, that we are addressing those environmental concerns, making sure that we have stability in the market so that, that firms can operate independently and efficiently. And then also too, making sure that we have an environmental protection agency, one that is transparent. And all of this altogether is making sure that we are addressing, um, the recommendations of the Samuel Review, making sure that we are, you know, doing what we said and what we've committed to, in previous elections and now by putting this bill before parliament.

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CHRIS BATH: Nobody's very happy with it though. On all sides, there's been a fair bit of criticism over it. How flexible is the government going to be in terms of amending the bill and listening to what people are suggesting?

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GORDON REID: And so look, we're working with those that would like to cooperate to see this bill passed. We want to make sure that we have strong environmental laws here in Australia, and we're willing to work with those people that want to see that happen in Australia and that's, that's what this bill's about. The Minister's been very upfront about that. Um, and it'll be good to see, uh, it'll be good to see this bill finally be put to the parliament and I'd encourage our, our friends on the cross bench, I'd encourage the, uh, the opposition to, uh, to pass this bill. We're ready to pass this bill. We want to make sure that we have modern and fit for purpose, uh, environmental laws, and you know, I suppose at the end of the day as well, we've also consulted very widely, with stakeholders right across the industry base to make sure that we get this right. And you know, we remain open, uh, to working with all members of the parliament to deliver, to deliver these much-needed laws.

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ZALI STEGGALL: Gordon, you've seen the legislation? Have you seen the legislation?

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GORDON REID: So I've seen, I've seen bits of this legislation and had a discussion, uh, with members of the caucus, but I think it's important that we get behind it. We need, we need this

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CHRIS BATH: So you’re happy that it covers everything, Gordon? Thank you for that question, Zali, by the way.

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ZALI STEGGALL: Sorry.

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GORDON REID: Sorry. Look, we need to make sure that we, we pass these laws sooner rather than later. We need to make sure that we have these robust environmental regulations in place and make sure that we go through those recommendations from the Samuel Review in order to protect Australia's rich biodiversity whilst also providing industry certainty.

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CHRIS BATH: No, what I'm asking is you happy that it's comprehensive enough to do that?

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GORDON REID: I have, I have full faith, uh, I have full faith in our Minister for the Environment. I have full faith in our caucus, but I also have faith that our executive has consulted widely and will work with members across the parliament who want to see this bill come into effect.

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CHRIS BATH: You're listening to the Monday Political Forum with me, Dr. Gordon Reid, Labor MP for Robertson. Uh, my co-host Zali Steggall, Independent MP for Warringah who asked a great question there, and Dave Sharma, Liberal Senator for New South Wales. I want to get onto Monique Ryan's private member's bill now. She's introduced a, a bill to put, uh, um, among other things some restrictions around departing MPs. Um, as, Zali pointed out to us, not all MPs. This bill applies to ministers, senior advisors and senior public servants, so not every single MP that departs parliament. But the idea is to try to prevent them from immediately working for lobby groups when they leave. Here's Dr. Ryan earlier today.

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[CLIP STARTS]

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MONIQUE RYAN: It should be understood before people take up a job here that you can't use the knowledge that you gain in this place for commercial advantage after you leave it. You can use the skills by perhaps working in a different field, but there should be a cooling off period so that there's no question of commercial advantage.

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[CLIP ENDS]

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CHRIS BATH: Yeah, so do you think that's fair enough? Zali, let's start with you.

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ZALI STEGGALL: Well, if I put my lawyer hat on, I have a little bit of difficulty with it,

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CHRIS BATH: Restraint of trade?

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DAVE SHARMA: Restraint of trade, yeah. Non-compete.

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ZALI STEGGALL: And you know, we are entitled to employment and those issues, and when the pension... got abolished for, uh, politicians, the question is, you'd leave this place, you are still going to need employment. That being said, someone in a decision where they can, you know, maybe make, uh, recommendations or decisions that will allocate vast amounts of public funds to a private entity, imagine you're the Minister for Health and you can, you know, allocate a large contract for billions of dollars to a pharmaceutical company, and a year after, uh, leaving your post, uh, as minister that you were to go and work for that company, it raises questions of integrity and conflict of interest. So, I think we need to find a balance between, uh, where you are in a position to allocate and make decisions, um, as a minister or a senior public servant, you should not be able to then go and find employment with a company to which you, you've granted a contract.

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CHRIS BATH: Dave Sharma, what are your thoughts on this?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well look, I think, you in a situation where there was a clear quid pro quo, so where if someone was a minister and allocated a government contract, say, to a defence contractor, and on the express or even implicit understanding that they would then find employment, I mean that would be corrupt behaviour now and would be caught by the laws now. But I'm a little concerned about the situation, as Zali referenced this, about restraint of trade. I mean, members of parliament, when they need, when they leave parliament, need to be able to go and earn a living, and if you're like Dr. Reid, you can go back to your medical practice, I guess. Not all of us are skilled or as versatile.

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GORDON REID: I'll take the compliment and good feedback when I can get it, mate.

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DAVE SHARMA: As he is. I mean, Zali's right, the more generous parliamentary pension and super schemes were abolished about 20 years ago. if you're voted out in an election, you get something between three and six months of salary, and then you're expected to find work again. And I think we need to just be mindful that we should want people to come and put themselves forward and serve in the parliament, but they need to be able to earn a living afterwards. It can't, sort of, crawl their career afterwards. So, I haven't looked at Monique’s legislation in detail. I'd like to look at it a little more closely. In principle, I don't have an objection to the idea that you can't privately profit from your public office, but I just think that we need to look at exactly how that would be operationalised.

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CHRIS BATH: Is it more about the, the privilege of having information that you wouldn't have access to externally?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, the Labor government, we support them on this, are currently introducing basically a ban on non-compete clauses, which operates in the private sector. And the idea there is that, at the moment, employers are able to put restraints upon an employee as to where they can work in the future because they are using the knowledge that they have gained from that employer, whether it's, you know, market knowledge or operations knowledge or any number of other things, to go and, earn a living somewhere else. And I think rightly, most people find that objectionable and there are good there are laws against that, to a degree, for good reason. So, I think people should be able to… a better understanding of how government and parliament works is not a bad thing to be taking into the private sector. But it's if you're using, you know, personal connections or something improper that you employed when you were in public office, I think that's where the red line arises. But just because someone knows how the legislative process works or the committee structure works or how to find out who said what on this issue, people should be able to use those skills, I think, when they leave parliament.

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CHRIS BATH: Dr. Reid, where do you stand on this?

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GORDON REID: Yeah, so having a look at this today, I think there's also, too, the, uh, the post-ministerial employment component of the code of conduct for ministers, uh, which, which does go through this, this element in quite detail. It's section seven, I think, and basically it goes to the timeframe in which a minister would be unable to engage in employment using the knowledge that they gained in their ministerial portfolio that was relevant. So I think, I think that's one aspect to consider as well. And, you know, not taking any personal advantage of that information. So, you know, that's already outlined quite clearly in the post-ministerial employment, although listening to Zali and to Dave their points here, they're valid points, but I think ultimately when we talk about transparency and accountability, we have the ministerial code of conduct that's been put in place, but then also, too, we have the National Anti-Corruption Commission as well.

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DAVE SHARMA: And the lobbyists register.

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GORDON REID: Yeah. And the lobbyists register as well. you know, I just as a side note, you know, before I got into politics, it actually shocked me that there wasn't a National Anti-Corruption Commission. I actually, you know, someone who didn't go up through the political realm and in government, I thought, that's absolutely insane." But now, we have an anti-corruption commission, we have the lobbyist register, we have the ministerial code of conduct, so all of these things are there to not only, uh, protect the individuals but also protect the institution that is government and that is public office.

CHRIS BATH: You're listening to the Monday Political Forum here on 702 ABC Radio Sydney. With me here today, Dr. Gordon Reid, Dave Sharma, and Zali Steggall. Uh, Four Corners is tonight airing another investigation about childcare, this time into the scale of sexual abuse in the sector. I was chatting to one of the researchers for the program, uh, just after five o'clock on Drive this afternoon. We know there have been some reforms since Adele Ferguson's last Four Corners expose earlier this year. Some of those are yet to come into effect. there were pretty shocking revelations in this Four Corners piece on the ABC tonight. is it time to bite the bullet and call a royal commission on this? Zali Steggall?

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ZALI STEGGALL: Look, I'm reluctant to call for a royal commission because I wouldn't want to see the delay that that would entail, and that just means more children being exposed and potentially at risk. So, what I think we need is much more coordination of information between police forces across states and territories. We need strong rules. Look, I'm actually working on a Rights of the Child Act to bring into effect into legislation what we signed onto when it comes to the UN Convention of the Rights of the Child to really make sure we're very clear about what the minimum standards are. I mean, these are criminal charges. it's horrific, the level of abuse, and, um, it's really damaging for parents because it means there is a loss of trust in the system of childcare, and that is incredibly damaging. So, I think the government really needs to focus on this, whether it needs, um, a special, maybe action group to really make, ensure we bring some fast changes that give confidence to parents that the sector is safe for their children.

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CHRIS BATH: Gordon Reid, do we need a royal commission?

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GORDON REID: Look, I think, you know, just from the outset, these are absolutely heinous crimes, um, and the full extent of the law should be thrown at these perpetrators that commit these crimes. These, you know, this is ... We have a duty of care to protect our youngest Australians, often our most vulnerable Australians, um, and that's what our government has set out to achieve, um, and set out to complete. There's obviously more work that needs to be done in this space, and you will have heard the comments of, of the Education Minister, Jason Clare and the like speaking on this topic. But looking through what's been done already and probably what needs to be done in the future, you know, the National Educator Register, the mandatory child safety training, um, for workers in this space, the trial of closed-circuit television in the centres. You know, more information so that our parents are able to be informed about what's happening in these childcare centres. But the one thing that, you know, I really want to focus on is the Working With Children Check, um, and the nationalization and harmonization of that Working With Children Check. You know, I, I need one to work in the hospital in New South Wales. Um, you know, if, if a problem or a crime or an issue has occurred in one state, you shouldn't be able to jump states, in order to, to get employment in that space, in the childcare sector or, or, or more broadly even in health. But making sure that they're harmonized right across the country is going to be vital.

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CHRIS BATH: Dave Sharma, what would you like to see here?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I share the horror of my colleagues at this. I’ve had children in the childcare system, I'm sure my other colleagues here have as well. You put them in there with a high degree of trust and expectation that they'll be looked and cared for, and the idea that there are people preying on them and exploiting them and sexually abusing them is, is horrific, and it does send a chill down any parent's spine to think this could happen. I think we need to look at tougher enforcement of the law, and if necessary, tougher punishing and minimum mandatory sentencing guidelines. I'd support Gordon's suggestion of a nationalized system of, you know, working with children and, and safety checks and whatnot. Um, but I think if a royal commission's what is required, I mean, I haven't seen the exposé tonight on Four Corners, but, you know, if this continues to emerge like this, I think we need a root-and-branch review of the whole sector, and that might call for a royal commission.

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CHRIS BATH: You're listening to the Monday Political Forum. Dr. Gordon Reid is here along with Dave Sharma and Zali Steggall. Uh, on a much lighter note, the PM emerged from a, a long-haul flight, as we know, wearing a Joy Division T-shirt. What is your band T-shirt of choice, Zali Steggall?

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ZALI STEGGALL: Oh, I have to admit, I don't actually have one. I don't have a band T-shirt. I know, I'm, I'm letting the side down, but I know there is a, a band T-shirt day coming up and I will make sure I get one.

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CHRIS BATH: Just which ... From who, who, okay, who, when you buy your first band T-shirt, Zali Steggall?

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ZALI STEGGALL: Oh, geez.

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CHRIS BATH: Who's it gonna be?

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ZALI STEGGALL: well, look, local artists that I do love their music, uh, Angus & Julia Stone, so that's what I'll go looking for.

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CHRIS BATH: Okay. Dave Sharma?

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DAVE SHARMA: Look. Sorry, I've got a very bad answer here aswell. I don't own, own any band T-shirts.

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GORDON REID: You're all killing me

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CHRIS BATH: We've gotta get you one, too. That's un-Australian, Dave Sharma.

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DAVE SHARMA: I’ve asked my staff to come up with some good suggestions that I could plausibly use but they're not credible. So I don't own any band T-shirts, I'm afraid. I'm not even sure what, what one I would buy.

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CHRIS BATH: Oh, Dave!

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DAVE SHARMA: Um, I haven't ... I don't think I've even been to a concert in quite a few years.

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CHRIS BATH: You've gotta live!

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GORDON REID: We'll go together, Dave. We'll go together.

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CHRIS BATH: Okay, Gordon Reid, you've got to amend this situation. What are you gonna do?

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GORDON REID:  The choices are numerous. I think either The Moving Stills, King Stingray or Spacey Jane, sort of the, the newer end.

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DAVE SHARMA: I haven't heard of any of them.

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GORDON REID: Um, or I've got my other two, I've got my other two sitting in the wardrobe. I've got a Cold Chisel one and I've gota n Australian Mine Australian Crawl one as well. So you can pick, Dave. You can have one of

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DAVE SHARMA: I'll have one of the Cold Chisel or the Australian Crawl. Thanks, Gordon.

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CHRIS BATH: Giddy-up! Well done. Um, thank you so much for joining us, all of you. Lovely to have you with us.

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GORDON REID: Thank you.

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DAVE SHARMA: Thanks Chris.

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ZALI STEGGALL: Thank you.

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CHRIS BATH: Dr. Gordon Reid, Dave Sharma and Zali Steggall there.

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[ENDS]