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Transcript

E&OE.......................

PAUL CULLIVER: Australia will join a number of nations who have decided to recognise the state of Palestine, joining UK, France and Canada, potentially even New Zealand too, although that decision has not been made by that country. You would have heard in the am programme Penny Wong, the Foreign Affairs Minister, talking about what outcomes Australia hopes to achieve. You would have heard that interview on AM. Dave Sharma is Liberal Senator for New South Wales and former Ambassador to Israel and joins you this morning. Senator, good morning.

DAVE SHARMA: Good morning, glad to join you.

PAUL CULLIVER: What's your reaction to the Prime Minister and indeed Australia deciding to recognise the state of Palestine?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I don't think it's going to bring about any of the things they promise it will and in fact I think it's likely to make them harder. That is a two-state solution, a conclusion of this current round of fighting, a ceasefire, and the release of the hostages. Those are all aims that the Prime Minister and Penny Wong have said would be facilitated by this. In fact, what this decision does by basically strengthening Hamas, rewarding their terrorist attacks, and encouraging them to keep going, It makes all of those things more distant prospects.

PAUL CULLIVER: Well, a key plank of of this recognition from Australia, though, does come with Hamas giving up their power over Gaza, demilitarising. So how does this reward Hamas if, indeed, indeed, Hamas has to stop ruling Gaza under any kind of recognition?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I mean, how will that happen? The Prime Minister can't explain that. He's going to the UN in New York in September, next month. He's going to announce Australian recognition of a Palestinian state. Once you've done that, you can't reverse it. Now, are you telling me that by that time, Hamas will have laid down its weapons, released its hostages and given up political power? No, of course that will not have happened. And then we'll have gone and extended this recognition with none of those preconditions met. I mean, the point is that this is a strategy of hope. It's not a plan. And Albanese has no way of enforcing these conditions. It's quite clear that he hopes this is what will happen and what will result, but if it doesn't, he's got no other remedy.

PAUL CULLIVER: Minister Wong describes sort of the counterfactual or the counter approach to this as doing the same thing and expecting a different result. What is the other approach here? What is a solution that doesn't involve recognising the state of Palestine right now?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, the solution is the end of this current conflict, which is, you know, the release of the hostages and the ending of the fighting between the IDF and Hamas, the installation of a civilian legitimate representative form of government in Gaza that's not Hamas, that's not a terrorist group. That's not committed to Israel's ideological destruction. That does not have no regard whatsoever for its own population. And then the commencement of negotiations towards a two-state solution. One of the biggest obstacles to a two-state solution in the past 25 years has been Hamas, because any time negotiations have started, Hamas has often derailed them with terrorist attacks. Hamas has basically not allowed the Palestinian Authority, that body that governs the West Bank, to enter into these negotiations. So with Hamas removed from the scene, there is at least the prospect of meaningful negotiations. But what this deal does and what this wave of international recognitions do, it validates Hamas's military strategy. It validates the terrorist attacks of the 7th of October. strengthens them internally within the Palestinian body politic. And it makes their departure from the scene much less likely.

PAUL CULLIVER: The call from the Prime Minister and indeed the Australian government comes amidst what seems to be a growing tide of concern within the Australian community over what is happening in Gaza. We have tens of thousands of civilians and innocent Palestinians being killed. We have the reports of starvation and the reports that Israel is blocking that aid getting into Gaza. We obviously overnight have just had the news of five Al Jazeera staff, including a well-known Arabic correspondent, Anas al-Sharif, having been killed in a targeted Israeli airstrike in Gaza. There are a myriad reasons why Australians are pretty concerned about what is happening in Gaza. What is the response there to try to remedy that and actually provide a path to safety and some kind of rebuilding for Gaza when these events are unfolding?

DAVE SHARMA: I share those concerns and I understand them entirely. I mean, the cost to the civilian population in Gaza from this conflict has been very high and there are credible sources of information that are reporting widespread malnutrition, instances of starvation and food insecurity. These are fundamental and legitimate concerns. But I think what has been confused in the public's mind here, and the government is adding this, is that somehow Australian government recognition of a Palestinian state will address the humanitarian concerns or will alleviate some of the suffering. It won't. And in fact, as the US and other mediators have said in the last few days, they were getting close to a ceasefire agreement with Hamas, but Hamas has now, as a result of this wave of international recognitions, basically increased its demands. The deal is no longer in prospect. So if you want to have a stop to the fighting, if you want to see humanitarian aid increase, then focus on the ceasefire and focus on putting pressure on Israel to increase the flow of aid into Gaza. And those are objectives I share. But don't think that somehow recognising a Palestinian state is going to help those. In fact, it's going to do just the opposite.

PAUL CULLIVER: If you could establish a Palestinian state, residents of the West Bank, of Gaza, of Palestine could be recognised citizens of a state recognised internationally. Why does that not give them further footing to defend themselves or indeed to establish some kind of level of safety and protect themselves against what has been happening at the hands of Israel in Gaza, whereas I'm specifically referring to, of course, where you've got civilians and innocents losing their life, not quite removed from, of course, the killing of terrorists.

DAVE SHARMA: So I'd say, look, Australia recognising a Palestinian state is not going to bring a Palestinian state about. The only thing that can bring a Palestinian state about is admission and acceptance by the UN Security Council. And that is a place where the United States exercises a veto and they would almost certainly use it. So all Australian recognition of Palestine will do is change the status of their Palestinian diplomatic representatives in Australia and change the status of Australian diplomatic representatives in the West Bank, in Ramallah. It's not going to bring a state about. The fundamental attributes of the state, which is, you know, a defined territory with defined boundaries and a government that represents the entirety of the people, those are lacking in the Palestinian territories. Now, I would like to see them come about, but just because we wish something to be so does not make it so. This is an example of diplomatic wishful thinking on the part of the government. It's not fundamentally going to change anything on the ground, except, as I said, the status of Palestine's diplomatic representatives in Australia.

PAUL CULLIVER: Of course, the Hunter plays a role in the supply chain of parts for F-35s, some of those F-35s used by Israel in the Israel Gaza war there's concerns about that role and also what be doing when it comes to sanctions on Israel, given their activities in Gaza. Do you think any of that should be scrutinised further?

DAVE SHARMA: I don't, no. Australia exports a limited amount of military equipment to Israel, but they are also a trusted security and intelligence partner, and I don't believe we should be looking at imposing any form of sanction against Israel. I mean, this is a country that was attacked in an act of unprovoked aggression on 7 October. We recognise, and this is both sides of politics, recognise its right to self-defence as a result of that attack and its right to eliminate Hamas as a military actor. I don’t think we should be taking steps to, you know, to punish Israel for having been the victim of this attack.

PAUL CULLIVER: Is there a risk this is going to be a forever war?

DAVE SHARMA: No, but it's certainly gone on a long time. I mean, it's been one of the longest-running conflicts in the Middle East. Elements of it now are more like a counterinsurgency, if you like, an insurgency and a counterinsurgency rather than a day-to-day conflict. But, look, it has certainly gone on a long time, and what would bring it to a close is if Hamas puts the interests of its population ahead of its own political interests and reaches a ceasefire deal with Israel.

PAUL CULLIVER: Senator, thanks for your time today.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much for having me.

PAUL CULLIVER: Dave Sharma is your New South Wales Senator with the Liberal Party of course, one of them. He's also a former ambassador to Israel.

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