‍

Transcript

E&OE.......................

‍

CHRIS BATH: You're with Chris Bath on 702, ABC Radio Sydney. Time for the Monday political forum. And joining me today, former Labor leader, now CEO of Foodbank, John Robertson, here in the studio with me. Lovely to have you here.

JOHN ROBERTSON: Nice to be here, Chris.

CHRIS BATH: Dave Sharma, Liberal senator, joining us from Canberra, I believe. Dave, thanks for your time.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much, Chris. I'm actually in Sydney.

CHRIS BATH: Oh, you're in Sydney town, there you go. And Zali, we've had a late scratching. Allegra Spender couldn't make it, so we've roped you in. Thank you very much for joining us.

ZALI STEGGALL: Thank you for having me.

CHRIS BATH: Zali Steggle, that is, I've left out. I was so enthusiastic that Zali was here. First name, come in. So I thought we might kick off with the bridge protest. Ed Husic says the weekend's march on the Harbour Bridge is a wake up call for politicians. John Robertson, what did you take out of it? Do you think it was a wake up call for Australian politicians?

JOHN ROBERTSON: Well, I've been involved in a few protests, march, Chris, going back to the Iraq war and those sorts of things. I think these things are always pretty powerful messages for all our politicians. I think the first thing to note is just how effective our systems work. You know, if you go back to the Supreme Court and the decision that the march could proceed, I think our police and the organisers of that rally did an outstanding job. I think everyone did an outstanding job for a peaceful day. I think these things do convey a message. And the weather would have impacted on a lot of people not, uh, attending. I know people who went, and decided and went to the city and then decided there were so many people there and the weather that they'd just hang around the city and not even participate in the march. But so there would have been a lot of people who either wanted to attend, but the weather put them off or went and just saw the numbers and were slightly put off by it. I think overall these things do send a message to all of our politicians about the mood in the community. And how could you not be moved by what we're seeing continually on the TV on both sides? I think the images that were, uh, broadcast of that poor, uh, hostage being held by Hamas, I mean, I think they're all very powerful images and images move people. And I think what you saw yesterday was just how moved people are, uh, by what they're seeing and also the fact that people uh, are done, they want to see something happen, um, to end the misery, uh, that's occurring in the Middle East.

CHRIS BATH: Senator Dave Sharma, as a serving politician, what did you take out of it?

DAVE SHARMA: Well look, I respect, and obviously it was on full display yesterday, that people feel very strongly about this issue and I can understand that. I mean not only the humanitarian suffering amongst the Palestinian civilian population in Gaza, but also the fate of the hostages that are still being held there. And just the general bloodshed and trauma that these conflicts has led to. I can understand that and I respect people's right to protest about it. I do have misgivings though about allowing critical pieces of infrastructure to be, you know, disabled for large chunks of the day for a protest which is essentially about an issue over which Australia has very little agency and influence. And I'm also very conscious because of the level of animosity directed particularly towards Australia's Jewish community over the past two years that these protests, this one didn't, I don't think, but these protests have in the past led to some pretty disturbing episodes of anti Semitism and harassment directed at Australia's Jewish population.

CHRIS BATH: Zali Steggall, what did you take out of the protest on the weekend?

ZALI STEGGALL: Look, well, I actually attended with my husband. I, um, have, I haven't attended, uh, any of the protests in the past and I certainly have not agreed with some of the messaging and some of the actions of some of those involved, um, and called that out. And you know, I agree, um, with uh, Dave, that it has been incredibly distressing for Jewish Australians to be sort of held responsible for the actions of what is happening, uh, overseas. And we can't have that lead to anti, um, Semitism and that break of social cohesion in Australia. But, ah, I did attend the march and was able to cross the bridge with my husband. Um, feeling really strongly that we. This. The breaches of international human rights law, this prevention of aid of food and medical aid to innocent civilians is unacceptable. It's unconscionable. And it has to be called out. And I think for many in the community, it's the distress and frustration of what are the levers to break through, to send a clear message that this simply cannot continue.

CHRIS BATH: You're listening to the Monday Political Forum with me, the independent member for Warringah, Zali Steggall, Liberal Senator Dave Sharma, and John Robertson, former Labor Leader, now CEO of Foodbank. It was interesting today to watch wake up this morning and find police copping some criticism for turning protesters around. The police have been saying they were really worried about a crowd crush. There have been accusations today that they fabricated the potential for danger. John Robertson, would police lie so blatantly and publicly about that?

JOHN ROBERTSON: I'm never one for conspiracy theories, Chris, and I've got to say, you know who'd be a copper today? When you've got to make instant decisions and then everyone replays whatever your actions were in slow motion. I do think it was a short time frame to build a rigorous process to make sure people are safe. I'm not convinced that there was any conspiracy. I think the police were making decisions on the run, as we've heard in the media reports. I think all in all, the fact that people were turned around, which frankly, would have been no mean feat and done so without anyone getting angry or anyone getting injured, I think is a credit to the police in this situation. And as I say, I think by and large our police do a fantastic job and are often, uh, having their actions or decisions reviewed in slow motion. A bit like the bunker in the nrl. You've got to make instant decisions and people make judgement calls in that instant based on what's before them.

CHRIS BATH: Zali Steggall, you were there. Do you feel like the police made the right call? Was there anything untoward in their decision to turn people around from what you were seeing?

ZALI STEGGALL: Yeah, I'd have to say from my personal experience, it was fairly strange. And I have to say, all police that I came across along the bridge, especially at the exit at the north end, were incredibly friendly, supportive and helpful. So. And I'm really thankful for so many of them being out there at short notice and obviously the concerns around such a big crowd. But it was strange, is the best way I could describe it, that we got to about halfway. I Got the first text message. I genuinely thought it was a spot of someone trying to actually disrupt, um, the march and cause confusion by sending a text. The way it was, um, it was kind of contradicted by. I looked online to news reports that indicated there were three exit strategies possible from the march. You know, retrace your steps or exit on the northern side, if you were a northern side resident of Sydney. Um, so I actually continued. My husband and I continued, um, along the side of the bridge to the other end. And we had, you know, the first part, you had a trickle of people walking back and then gradually it became this throng of the full march coming back against you. I had received information that we could get off at the other side, so continued that way. Um, so I would question that the whole process of turning a march around seemed to actually create the prospect of a crush in itself by doing that very action when you had such a mass of people. So I am curious. I would be, you know, I'm not saying conspiracy theorists and I'm not putting anything out there, but it was fairly, um, it was a strange course of action in the context of such a large amount of people going in a clearly stated direction. Even the fact that you didn't you turn people around and use the Car Hill Expressway, for example, different lanes of the bridge, rather than sending people back along the very same path. You know, you had wheelchairs and prams and all sorts of things going on. So to me it was. I do have questions around the process and of the decision making of what occurred.

CHRIS BATH: And just on the local politics of this. It's interesting, you know, you've got Bob Carr out there marching. He was the founder of the Labor Friends of Israel. You also had some Labor MPs marching on the weekend too. Is having this very senior Labor elder statesman in Bob Carr being so outspoken on this, undermining Chris Minns? Dave Sharma, what's your read on this? Has the Premier ended up on the wrong side of this by trying to stop the protest?

DAVE SHARMA: No, I don't think he's ended up on the wrong side. I think he's got a responsibility to the state at large and the functioning of the state and critical pieces of infrastructure. And I think the Premier has been rightly expressing concern today about the precedent that this might set, that, you know, if major pieces of infrastructure. One day it's the bridge, another day it's another major freeway. Maybe it's the airport one day or a port, what would this mean for the functioning of the state. But undoubtedly, I think the fact that you've got, you know, senior Labor alumni, if you like, participating in this protest does make it more difficult for him. But they're focused on a particular issue. Chris Minns rightly has a responsibility to the entire state, and I think he's attempting to discharge that.

CHRIS BATH: John Robertson, has a precedent been set here for future marches across the bridge?

JOHN ROBERTSON: I'm not convinced it has. Uh, I think, you know, we went through our systems, as I said earlier, worked effectively. Police lodged with the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court made a decision, and we all made it work. And it played out quite peacefully and all those sorts of things. In regards to Bob, um, Bob's had very strong views on the Middle east for a long, long time. I don't think it comes as any surprise to any of us in the Labor Party that Bob was there.

CHRIS BATH: You're listening to the Monday Political Forum with me today. Dave Sharma, Liberal senator, is in Sydney at the moment. John Robertson, former Labor leader, now CEO of Foodbank. And Zali Steggall, who's stepped in at the last minute. We had Allegra Spender as a late scratching. She's the independent MP for Warringah. So we're very grateful that she's here. I want to get onto the economic roundtable and tax reform. Now we know the agenda for the Treasurer's Economic roundtable and just over a fortnight will, broadly speaking, focus on resilience, productivity and budget sustainability and tax reform. He's handpicked the speakers. Zali, I know you've been doing a bit of work on this. When you read the agenda and you looked at the speakers, did you think, oh, the whole thing's rigged. He's only going to hear from the people that he wants to hear from?

ZALI STEGGALL: Look, I was a little worried. I do remember the Jobs and Skills Summit of the beginning of the last Parliament where I think there was a predetermined outcome the government wanted to achieve around industrial relations reform. And then they reverse engineered, I think, a Jobs and Skills summit to get to that. We did have other issues that came up through that summit that ultimately got legislative change. So I think it doesn't preclude good outcomes. But I am concerned that such a big topic as, uh, productivity tax reform to suggest that three days with, uh, 20 something guests. You know, it's a very small, uh, roundtable arena to tackle such a big area. It feels a little bit selective. But I have made a submission, um, oh, it's going in at the moment, I believe my submission to the product to the roundtable. And I hope genuinely the treasury and the Department will be looking at all submissions and be open minded to having further discussions.

CHRIS BATH: Dave Sharma, do you feel like your side of politics is going to get a say at the table?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, we are sending Ted O’Brien, who's the Shadow Treasurer. That's one seat we've got. I'd point out that the trade unions have got, I think four out of the 24 seats. So almost 20% of the representatives there. We are approaching it though in a constructive spirit, and if the government is genuine about wanting to get control of spending, but also look at tax reform and productivity measures more broadly, then we are up for that conversation. But we do also have, as Zali mentioned, the memory of the Jobs and skills summit of 2022 in mind when this was largely used to railroad business, and others into accepting a re regulation of our industrial relations system which has taken us back beyond the Paul Keating era. And that's the sort of thing we are on guard against this time.

CHRIS BATH: What do you think of the Economic roundtable? Robbo? You're out of it, so you can.

JOHN ROBERTSON: Well, I went to the 2020 summit when Kevin Rudd was elected. I moved last year and found all the papers from the 20 look, I think those things can be quite effective and regardless of what people's perceptions are, I think it is an opportunity for a much more detailed conversation. And the fact that people um, are put out, that someone's got more numbers than someone else I think is a demonstration of. There is a clear recognition there is value at being at the table and participating in these sorts of things. M business councils going, you've got unions going, you've got a whole range of other organisations going. I think these things can be an opportunity for those discussions but to at least start that process of reform and you know, everyone agrees we need more of it, particularly around tax and the like. Um, the actu's putting in again about negative gearing, grandfathering, capital, um, gains on investment properties and all those sorts of things. They are big issues that need to be confronted if we're going to deal with the housing crisis because frankly more uh, houses isn't going to be enough. We know we're behind already. We need something more innovative and hopefully something positive can come out of this.

CHRIS BATH: One of the big things that the Treasurer has been saying is that he wants to take more pressure off income tax paid by working Australians but make the budget more sustainable at the same time. I know Zali, you released a white paper last week looking at a range of measures to make a more resilient economy. What's your answer to this? You know, how do you take the pressure off income tax but prop the budget up at the same time so we still have the public services available to us that we've become accustomed to as an ageing population?

ZALI STEGGALL: Well, we know we're not recouping anywhere near enough ah, revenue from our resources as other similar nations are. So a starting point has to be re examining the petroleum resource rent tax and setting it at a level that actually gives a return to the Israeli people. Uh, I also am advocating in my re Energised Economy paper that we have to look at carbon border adjustment mechanisms and we should have uh, a climate resilience export levy on fossil fuels because ultimately it's the Israel and people for the consequences. So day one of the roundtable is resilience. There's no specific focus there on just, you know, the impact to our economy from climate risk that is escalating. Uh, as soon as a disaster strikes, uh, all productivity in that zone comes to zero and we know you have a real uh, tail end of disruption and an insurance risk that continues. So we have to start looking at those costs and actually acknowledging them in our economic forecasting so that you really are, um. If we're going to build resilience in the Australian economy and boost productivity, we have to stop, you know, we have to unshackle from old policies and the amount of support we have for fossil fuels is one that uh, you know, we have to push this government to have the courage to unshackle from all of that.

CHRIS BATH: Senator Dave Sharma, where do you think the solutions lie?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I'd make two points. One is, government spending has grown massively over the last three years from about, federal government spending from about 24% of GDP to about 27% of GDP, which is a figure last seen in the early 1980s. So part of the answer has to be spending restraint and spending discipline. Otherwise, you know, we've got at the moment government spending growing at four times the rate of the economy in this year's budget. Clearly that's not sustainable unless we are up for massive tax rises. On the tax mix, I mean I except that working age Australians who are earning an income are bearing too much of the overall tax burden these days. And I think that is, you know, it's been partly the result of bracket creep, partly the result of Australians living longer, partly the result of generous superannuation concessions, a whole mix of things. So finding a way, which is going to be more than one single change to redistribute that tax burden, if you like, is I think something we need to look at to make sure there's a level of intergenerational equity, if you like, in how does Australia fund our social services?

CHRIS BATH: It was interesting to see on Friday the Productivity Commission recommending cutting the corporate tax rate to 20% for small and medium sized companies with turnover less than a billion dollars, but increasing the tax burden on large businesses with revenue above a billion. Robbo, what do you think of this idea?

JOHN ROBERTSON: Well, I think Ross Gittins captured it perfectly this morning in the Herald where he said immediately the BCA came out and ruled it out, went around and started lobbying others to oppose this. I think ultimately, um, to Dave's point, far too much of the burden is falling on individuals and I do think we need to consider alternate options and people need to recognise that sometimes self interest comes will continue to drive the attitudes that we're seeing. And I think the approach by the BCA is unsurprising. But frankly, you know, governments, and I would say not just governments but oppositions need to think more long term about what is in the best interest of the nation rather than, you know, what makes a political point in a three year electoral cycle.

CHRIS BATH: Zali, what do you think of the Productivities Commission recommendation?

ZALI STEGGALL: Look, I think it certainly deserves um, a close analysis. My concern is too much of the government, maybe. Programmes policies are very geared to the very large corporations. There's very little support for small and medium sized businesses. Um, a classic one is the instant asset write off. You know, the uncertainty around that. So we know SMEs are desperate for more uh, policies that are geared towards them around taking the regulatory burden and the compliance burden off them. Um, the operating costs are just too high and all of the incentives around innovation and research are not geared towards the, that level of business. So this, uh, the productivity, um, that recommendation along with others, there has to be that focus on small to medium sized business.

CHRIS BATH: Just before we go, I wanted to touch on the man that Sydney lost last week. Father Chris Riley. He was an incredible crusader for young people. He helped thousands of vulnerable kids turn their lives around. He was renowned for his stubborn determination to help them. Also for going travelling with plastic shopping bags and not using luggage. I remember going on a trip and watching, watching him do that once. He didn't take no from an answer from anybody. Do you think every cause needs a champion like Father Chris? Or will government actually get to a point where people don't slip through the cracks? Dave Sharma.

DAVE SHARMA: I think there's always going to be a role for someone with the passion and dedication of Father Chris Riley. I didn't know him personally but I think the outpouring of emotion in the tributes that have been given to him just speaks of how many, speaks to how many lives he's touched. And look, government by its nature is an impersonal bureaucracy hemmed in by rules and processes and systems. And you often need someone with the charisma and dedication of someone like Chris Riley to actually make sure that people who otherwise don't have a voice, or otherwise aren't heard, do get paid attention.

CHRIS BATH: Zali Steggall, does every cause need a Father Chris Riley?

ZALI STEGGALL: Oh, if only. I mean I don't know if we have as many passionate people across every cause. But look, Youth off the Streets is a fantastic organisation and cause. So incredibly important to get youth off the streets. So it has lost an incredible champion. But what a legacy that uh, Father Riley leaves behind and hopefully an inspiration for many more.

CHRIS BATH: Robbo, you would have bumped into Father Riley over the years.

JOHN ROBERTSON: I had a good friend who worked with Father Chris for quite a significant period of time. I think working in this sector like I do now, um, you can't afford to take no for an answer. You've just got to persist. Persist? Persist. Um, my kids gave me a, ah, sign years ago for my birthday, which was the word persist. And, um, I think Chris Riley transformed literally thousands of lives. There will be people out there now contributing to society because of the great work he did.

CHRIS BATH: Yep. And you've got a birthday shout out.

JOHN ROBERTSON: Yeah, thanks. It's my, uh, son Aidan's birthday today. Happy birthday, pal. And look forward to dinner short.

CHRIS BATH: Dave, Zali, would you like to wish Aidan happy birthday as well?

ZALI STEGGALL: Absolutely.

DAVE SHARMA: Happy birthday, Aidan.

CHRIS BATH: Zali, thank you so much for stepping in at the last minute. Really appreciate it. Zali Steggle, stepping in for, Allegra Spender. Allegra was a very late scratching, so we are indebted to Zali, the Independent MP for Warringah, for being here. Liberal Senator Dave Sharma. Thank you very much for your time, too.

DAVE SHARMA: A pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on.

CHRIS BATH: And John Robertson, lovely to have you here with us in the studio. Happy birthday, Aidan, if you're listening.

‍