‍

Transcript

E&OE.......................

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Earlier I spoke to my political panel for today, it's been the first question time of the week. The second week the Parliament's sitting for the 48th parliament. Liberal senator Dave Sharma, who's a former Australian ambassador to Israel and the Shadow Assistant Minister for Competition Charities and Treasury. And Alicia Payne is the Labour MP for Canberra. Dave Sharma, Alicia Payne, welcome to the programme. There's some news out this afternoon. The Israeli Embassy in Australia has declared their is no starvation in Gaza. That's despite calls by world leaders, including of course, our own Prime Minister, for more aid to be delivered and a condemnation of Israel's actions. Alicia, I'll start with you. There appears, at least from the embassy here in Australia, to still be a contesting of this. Do you think Australia has gone far enough in its condemnation of Israel?

ALICIA PAYNE: I really welcome the Prime Minister's comments yesterday to say that it's clear that Israel is in breach of international law. And this week in Parliament, we've met with aid workers who've become, you know, such an important voice, uh, in a situation where journalists have limited access, um, and talking about what they're seeing. And they absolutely are saying that Palestinians are being starved at the moment, including doctors who are working in the hospitals. And they've talked about hospitals under siege. They're talking about innocent children in horrific situations. So I was really pleased to see that. And I do think that we should be pulling out every diplomatic lever we have, um, to stop this. And we have continually called for an immediate and permanent ceasefire, which is the most, uh, effective way to ensure that innocent lives are protected. And we've also continually called for aid to be allowed into Gaza and clearly by not allowing that, Israel is breaching international law.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Dave, do you agree with the Prime Minister that it was a breach of international law for Israel to stop food being delivered?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I don't believe Israel has stopped food from being delivered, or at least my understanding is that hasn't been the policy intent. But undoubtedly the level of humanitarian and hardship in Gaza has skyrocketed over the last few months. And I believe the reports we're hearing of hunger, food insecurity, malnutrition are credible. And I think we need to be acting in response to that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So when the Israeli Embassy in Australia declares that there is no starvation in Gaza, that's wrong, isn't it? Dave Sharma.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I haven't seen exactly what they said, but I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming, that there's a high, you know, there's this malnutrition, there's shortages of food. Now, you know, who's to blame there and how much is Hamas commandeering supplies? You know, people can have those sorts of arguments and discussions, but I don’t think the civilian population of Gaza, you know, should be held hostage, so to speak, because of those discussions. And I'm pleased that Israel has taken steps in the last 24 hours to withdraw military operations from some areas and to allow and assist food drops by air by neighbouring countries as well. I think that that shows you that they recognise that this is a problem.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: It's interesting. If I can just stay with you, I'll get to. Back to you, Alicia, in a second. Second. But Dave Sharma, you just say no one cares. And I think that's a really powerful point, actually, because for a child starving in Gaza, hearing from political leaders, uh, it's Hamas's fault, must be pretty hard to hear for those people, that they hear that this is the way people are sort of explaining it. That's not. That's not going to wash, is it? If you are starving, you have to find a way to get food to these people, don't you?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I mean, look, you and I are old enough to remember, you know, the Live Aid concerts and famine in Ethiopia in the mid-1980s. And in part that was brought about by, you know, a terrible totalitarian regime, the Mengistu regime. But no one thought that the population, the Ethiopian population, should starve because of the actions of that government. And look, the people of Gaza, yes, some might support Hamas, I'm sure many do not, but they don't have the capacity at least to change that situation. And they need to be fed, they need to have access to food and water and health care as well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: And, Alicia, I want to bring you in. There is still many, clearly, in the Israeli government contesting some of this. The Israeli embassy here, you said, uh, I wrote it down that all diplomatic levers should be used. What other diplomatic levers should the Israeli ambassador be hauled into Penny Wong or the Prime Minister's office to talk about this?

ALICIA PAYNE: Well, I think it's important, um, you know, our government's view on that has been that it's been important to keep those channels of communication open with the ambassador. And, um, that can be important in times of. Of conflict to, uh, keep those channels open. Um, but as I said, I was really pleased to see the strengthening of language, um, over the weekend. And I think, you know, to say that the starvation is not happening. We can all see it in what we're seeing in the media. And as I mentioned, we've heard it directly from aid workers who've just come back from being on the ground in Gaza. So I think, um, yeah, also not having not seen exactly what they've just said in the last, um, very recently.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So there are some experts, I know that you read very, very, uh, thoroughly on this issue, Dave Sharma, who say Israel should be flooding the zone, so to speak, like flooding Gaza with aid. Do you agree with that?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I mean that's a sort of question, I guess, of, that's a question ultimately for Israel. I mean, I would like…

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But you're a friend. Historically, I think it's important. Former ambassador for Australia to Israel, friend of Israel. I mean good friends have to be pretty honest with their friends. They have lost international support because of this behaviour that the world has denounced. Don't they need to fix it?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, yeah, there is a very live internal debate within Israel and there are critics of this policy from within, you know, security and defence and intelligence establishments and former Prime Ministers. Now they would say, or parts of the Israeli government would say, well, Hamas is using this as a sort of propaganda tool. But I think the way to stop that being used as a propaganda tool is to make sure that there is no food insecurity in Gaza, to make sure that the population is fed, to make sure that Hamas cannot use this to, you know, portray you as cruel or uncaring or insensitive. And I think Israel's international legitimacy does matter in this contest and it matters, I think, to its relationship with Australia as well.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Alicia, bringing you back in. Uh, your colleague Ed Husick says that Palestinian statehood should happen following France, that Australia should call for it, not Wait. Do you think that we need to accelerate that?

ALICIA PAYNE: Uh, well, I long to see that happen. I long to see us recognise a Palestinian state. And more importantly, when I speak with Palestinian people in my own community, they long for that, uh, recognition of their state. And this has been a position of Labor's for a very long time, um, and part of a plan for a two state solution. And I was very encouraged when the foreign minister said that we no longer saw this as an end to a peace process, but something that could happen along the way. And we want to see that happen, as the Prime Minister has said, at a time that is most advantageous to peace. So I hope that that is as soon as possible.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok, can I just drill down on this, because I've spoken to other colleagues of yours, off the record. I know lots of Labor MPs want this to happen at the September vote at the UN. Do you think that would be a good time to show your colours on this?

ALICIA PAYNE: Well, I think that, um, yes, there are many people, uh, within Labor who have been, um, who would. Who really want to see this and are actively having those conversations. But we have said that it will happen at the time that is most advantageous for peace, and I think that is important as well. We want to do this at a time that will have the most impact, not, um, to do something that, you know, may not actually help, uh, people in Gaza right now.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok, so just to get your personal position, do you think? Would you like to see it happen in September?

ALICIA PAYNE: Well, um, as I've said, you know, this is something I've been speaking about in Parliament since I was elected in 2019. It's something that's important to me, but more importantly important to the Palestinian people and something I hope to see happen as soon as possible, but I want to see as soon as September. Well, what's most important is that we see peace, uh, reached in the Middle east, that we see the people of Palestine able to live freely, uh, in a recognised state, um, in peace and security alongside, uh, the people of Israel in a state living in peace and security. And so we see that state step as part of that process. And it's important that we take that step at the right time.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Dave Sharma, just changing the topic. Former Nationals leader Barnaby Joyce says his bill to get, uh, rid of net zero, essentially, uh, is kind of key to dealing with, uh, prosperity, to dealing with all of the people who he says are struggling as a result of net zero. That's his case. At the same time, the WA Liberal Party has supported a motion over the weekend to abandon a target of net zero greenhouse gas emissions. Is the policy dead in your party?

DAVE SHARMA: No, not at all.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Sounds like it's dead. I mean, there's some big, you know, people coming out saying no.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think in some respects it's the usual suspects coming out and saying no. And they're people who've long been on the record. I mean, there is a variety of views within the Liberal Party and within the coalition more broadly on this issue. But, you know, we have a policy process to review all of our policies and this one will be reviewed as well. But I think, you know, absolutely, we should be scrutinising the transition to a lower emissions future and seeing if it's being done in the most optimal way, if it's got the social licence it needs to, to be operating in rural and remote areas. The speed and pace of the rollout, you know, the technology agnosticism or otherwise of it, but I don't think it's in our interests, Australia's national interests or indeed the Liberal Party's interest, to be, you know, quarrelling with the destination, if you like, of a lower emissions future. I think the public in Australia has made up their mind on that. I think the world has made up their mind on that. Yes, we can have discussions about the speed and pace and direction of that journey and the speed and pace and, you know, the pattern of that journey, if you like. But I think the destination is pretty clear, at least to me personally.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Ok, to you it's clear, but not to many of your colleagues. And you say the usual suspects. I mean, the WA Liberals, are they the usual suspects?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I mean you do get state Liberal parties and branches pass motions on all sorts of things. You know, the parliamentary wing of the party, just as you like, at ALP state conferences as well. The parliamentary wing of the party is informed by those and cognizant of those, but it doesn't dictate or determine policy. I mean, I think, you know, for many people, at least within, you know, my side of politics, I think Net zero is attracting more attention and more internal debate than I think the public is interested in us having, is my blunt political assessment. And that's why I don't think it's particularly useful.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Alicia, your party is obviously very much in favour of net zero, but do you think that the ambition around 2035, which is the next step that Labour has to take, show around, you know, show what your 2035ambitions should be high despite some, Some uh, you know, lobbying for Labour to go slowly.

ALICIA PAYNE: Well, we've been very ambitious on uh, climate action and it's been one of the things I've been proudest of, of our achievements in the previous government and continuing, um, you know, uh, in this Parliament that we. And just this morning we had a discussion with Minister Chris Bowen and the Labour Environmental Action Network Climate Council, um, on this topic. It's um, something I am sure we will be, uh, ambitious on and it's uh, something that needs to be considered very carefully weighing what we can actually achieve, which is important, um, and of course what is required by the science, which is the most important thing, uh, that we should be aiming for at the moment. And just, uh, following on, I find it extraordinary that the coalition, or some in the coalition are still questioning this. Not after, you know, of course, the immense body of science that says that we need to get to net zero. But, uh, you know, two election results that should make it very clear to all on their side of politics that the Australian people want action on climate change.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: All right, we're out of time. Thanks to both of you.

[ENDS]