Topics: Bob Katter, immigration, August 31 marches

E&OE.......................

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Dave Sharma is the Shadow Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury. Josh Burns is the government's special envoy for social housing and homelessness. Welcome to both of you. I have to start there because that all unfolded at the end of last sitting week. I thought there would be some sort of action in the Parliament in relation to Bob Katter's behaviour, which was pretty alarming for the journalist, um, and the impact it has on journalists. Yet nothing. What's going on? Who wants to take that first, please?

JOSH BURNS: Please Dave.

DAVE SHARMA: Thank you, Josh. Well, look, I've watched the footage as well. You know, when people have behaved strangely or in an unacceptable way. I shouldn't put a euphemism on this. In the past, I think the chambers normally would take action, the chamber of which I'm in the Senate, obviously. Bob Katter's in the House of Reps. I think, Look, there's a tendency with whatever he does, to write him off as an eccentric. That's just Bob. But I could see, I watched the exchange. I think it was pretty menacing and unfair to the journalist concerned. He was asking a legitimate question at a scheduled press event.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Mm. And this is the thing. I mean, it sends a message. He's actually doubled down, which is extraordinary, but he's doubled down on this and said he could have been more aggressive.

JOSH BURNS: I think the first thing to say is that, from my point of view, Patricia, the question of the journalist, to an elected member of Parliament about their own personal history, and whether or not their family has a migration, a history of migration, when that elected representative is talking about, you know, how we're having over representation of migrants in this country or the perils of migration, I think is an entirely legitimate question. So the first thing to say is that in no way do I think the journalist was being out of order. And I also agree that the standards that apply to us as elected representatives shouldn't ebb and flow depending on who the representative is. And while, you know, I think we all try and hold ourselves to a high account, ultimately we are all representatives of the House of Representatives. We are all representatives of the Senate or of the Parliament of Australia. And, you know, it shouldn't matter whether it's Bob or Dave or I, we should all be held to the proper standard of behaving. And I think this one, you know, completely missed the mark.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, today we've seen now, outside of the Melbourne Magistrates Court, the neo Nazi leader being taken into the police van. We're getting more details of that. Josh, I'll stay with you because it's a Melbourne based story. And I know because, emerged today, you were actually the one who broke the news to the Prime Minister in the caucus and asked him a question about this. What do you want to see happen?

JOSH BURNS: Ok, the police have taken action in relation to this one figure, but we are seeing what appears at face value as a rise in these neo Nazis, these emboldened neo Nazis on our streets. I think let's go to the specifics and then we make the broader point on the specifics. There are a number of charges, that this person is, going to have to confront in the courts. Regardless of or irrespective of this morning's, or the recent arrests that were made outside the court just now, there are extra charges that this person is facing. I do not want to do anything that would jeopardise the court proceedings. And I think that's an important point to make. Let me make the broader point of seeing neo Nazis on the steps of the Parliament is absolutely unacceptable. Seeing neo Nazis in, you know, cowardly walk around our streets in masks and in uniform, in black cladded clothes, you know, cowardly hiding their own identities is completely unacceptable. Having neo Nazis turn up to the press conference of the premier and elected officials is completely unacceptable. Clearly this person who's been arrested needs to face the full force of the law. But more broadly, you know, I'm the son of both refugees and migrants of this country. I'm a proud Australian. And I think that when you look at the parliament right now, we see, you know, more and more diversity and multiculturalism being represented in our parliament. And that is a fundamentally good thing. Now our country is made better by migration and made better by migrants who come to this country and contribute to it. And I am proud that we are a diverse and multicultural country. And the sort of dark and bigoted views that are being displayed by this small group of cowardly bigots, frankly does not represent Australia. In fact, Australia fought against that dark worldview.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: That is, is an important point to make. But we do appear to be seeing a rise in some of this far right movement. Are we doing enough to stem the rise of this?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I think what we've seen is, is a rise in kind of political extremism in Australia, certainly on the far right. We've seen it on the weekend, but we've also seen instances like Josh's office getting firebombed by political activists for political belief. So these people wouldn't identify as far right, obviously. And I think that is worrying because we've seen overseas, you know, at the worst case, we've seen elected representatives killed in the United Kingdom, in the United States, or assaulted or attacked. Uh, and I worry that our political culture in Australia is, is veering towards the more violent. And that's why it's very important. Whether it's this person, just yesterday who's now been arrested by the police, or the people who attacked Josh's office or anyone else, it's very important that I think we show no tolerance for that sort of activity. It doesn't matter whether, you know, what views they're expressing, which end of the political spectrum they're on. We should allow people to express their views through legitimate channels, but be firmly against them trying to express them through, you know, violent channels or activist type channels.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: So it brings me to what the Prime Minister said to your caucus, and he said it on Afternoon Briefing yesterday when he joined me too. Similar concept that, that not everyone at the weekend rallies was, you know, were Neo Nazis, and clearly, you know, some of them were good people. Do you think they were good people?

JOSH BURNS: I would, I would have this direct message to anyone who was at the rally that the sort of dark worldview of Neo Nazism doesn't have to be your story. And that Australia, you know, if you are worried about migration or you are worried about some of the cost of living pressures that people face, I mean, that is an entirely legitimate discussion that we can have sensible conversations about. But that doesn't mean that you need to then turn towards these dark, bigoted views that are not what Australia is about. They are not what makes this country vibrant and wonderful to be a part of. And there are challenges that we have from an economic point of view that, you know, that we are working on and that I'm working on, on housing and a whole range of different fronts. But bigotry, scapegoating, intolerance, racism, that isn't the answer. And if people are on the streets thinking about all of these things, about how they can, you know, support their family, don't turn towards the dark scapegoating. There are, there are, you know, there are other channels that, you know, and legitimate discussions that can be had.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: A lot of the sentiment was quite anti Indian.

DAVE SHARMA: It was. Yeah. And I know the Indian community felt that quite personally, quite deeply. My father's of Indian ancestry. I count myself to be of Indian ancestry. And, you know, the Indian community in Australia is almost a million people now, and they've made a huge contribution and they're people who, I mean, all migrant communities make contributions in the country.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But they work their guts out.

DAVE SHARMA: But they work their guts out to be, accepted and make a contribution as Australians. And I think that has been particularly hurtful. And I think there's no, you know, you know, they just want to raise their family in Australia, make a contribution to the nation, like the millions of people who've come before them and no doubt the tens of thousands that will come since, whether it's Josh's ancestors or mine. And I think, you know, we are better off as a nation because of the contribution that people like that make.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, I wonder then. I mean, today a new immigration number has been put out by the home affairs minister. 185,000, same as last year. That's the permanent number because there is. Yeah, it's complex for our viewers, but the government has decided to go with that same number. That means, they've kind of kicked the can down the road for people with, you know, want to bring their spouses here on visas. Have they made the right call?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think the real test, and sorry to befuddle your viewers with the net overseas migration number, because that's really what people feel, you know, that's the number of people who are in Australia this year who weren't last year. And I think, you know, the hard thing with this debate is you don't want to allow extremist sentiments to be ventilated. But by the same token, people are allowed to have a view on what is a suitable migration level for Australia. And that is a debate that we should be able to have in a respectful and a responsible way. And, you know, at various points in our nation's history, we've run a migration programme, a very bold and aggressive one, and at times a very conservative and restrictive one. And I think, you know, some of the people that we saw marching on the weekend do have a legitimate concern about, you know, the pressures that are being put on housing or infrastructure because of high..

PATRICIA KARVELAS: But it seems to me, and I did analyse this pretty closely, that most of the messaging was about the kind of migrants coming. Would you agree with that?

DAVE SHARMA: I wouldn't. I mean, I would say that that messaging is completely unacceptable. I think you can have a debate.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: It wasn't just a colorblind numbers point, it was about who's coming.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, yeah, and I don't subscribe to that view. I don't think we should ever put a prism of race or colour or ethnicity or religion on who we take. We should make an assessment based on our national interests. But that's about, you know, skills and our capacity to absorb people.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: On 85. I mean, Dave Sharma is correct that it's going to be a bigger number when we look at the other categories, but we don't have that whole number. Don't you have to be transparent about that to lead this debate in a way that's transparent so people aren't so suspicious of what the government's up to?

JOSH BURNS: Well, I'd say a couple of points that Dave is right in terms of the fluctuation of migration has happened over a period. It's even happened over the last five years. I mean, I remember when Scott Morrison was arguing with Mark McGowan saying, We can't live in the cave forever, we need to open up our country's borders. And that was, you know, this contest post Covid because, you know, I had people in my own electorate saying, I can't open my business. I need skilled workers, I need people coming back to the country house. Prices were actually still going up because we weren't building enough, because we didn't have enough economic activity. There is a, There was an. There is an equilibrium. We are definitely post the peak and we're heading back towards more sustainable levels of migration. I would also make the point that, you know, in regards to, you know. Absolutely, we need to find the right balance of skills, skills of workers, you know, making sure we have enough people to service the different parts of our economy. We want economic growth, all of that sort of stuff. Our population is actually in decline, excluding migration. But the other point to make, which is, I think also separate, Patricia, is now outside the steps of Parliament having, you know, Neo Nazis giving the keynote address. That is not a sensible conversation about migration. That is an ugly, bigoted and hurtful display that frankly is beneath Australians and beneath our country and it won't win. We will outlast that.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, also, real people are scared. Real Australians living their lives are actually fearful. And that's, that's not a situation. You can't run. You can't have a country where people are afraid.

JOSH BURNS: No. You can't have Neo Nazis running up and down the streets in black uniforms, pretending that they're tough. I mean, these people, these people have no place in, you know, that sort of behaviour has no place. Those attitudes have no place in Australia. They must be confronted. And we won't be intimidated. I mean, Victorians won't be intimidated. Australians won't be intimidated. I won't be intimidated by those buffoons. And frankly, you know, we will outlast their small attempt at trying to have influence. But right now, I also think it's important to say, Patricia, that we are a proudly multicultural country, and that sort of nastiness has no place.

PATRICIA KARVELAS: Well, it's kind of undeniable. That's literally what we are. As sort of a statement of fact. I want to thank you both. It's been a really good conversation.

[ENDS]

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