Topics: National Cabinet meeting, Refineries

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: I want to bring in my political panel for today. Dave Sharma is a Liberal Senator and the Shadow Assistant Minister for Multicultural Affairs. Josh Burns is a Labor MP and the Special Envoy for Social Housing and Homelessness. Welcome to both of you.

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JOSH BURNS: Afternoon, PK, Dave.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: Dave Sharma, I'll start with you. National Cabinet is on tomorrow, and we already know that the government will be suggesting and getting support for a national fuel czar that basically coordinates the distribution of fuel across the country. That sounds like A sensible idea. Will it solve the problem?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I'm certainly open to it, Patricia, but I think the most important thing the government needs to do here is to communicate clearly and consistently with the Australian public. I mean, last week we had Chris Bowen tell us multiple times there's no crisis, there's no issue, there's no problem. This week they're convening National Cabinet, and now, as you just announced, they're talking about appointing a fuel czar. Now, which one is it? Either this is a serious issue, we need to get to grips with it, or there's no problem. And I think the problem that we've had— sorry for the tautology there— but is the government continuing to change its tune on this? And consumers are responding in a way that you might expect when the messaging is unclear by being uncertain and panicking in some respects.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: Josh, tomorrow there's a few ideas on the table. There may be more as well. But that's an interesting point Dave Sharma has just made that perhaps that the uncertainty created some of the behaviours we've seen? Do you concede that it could have been better handled?

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JOSH BURNS: Oh, look, I think there's a lot of uncertainty that's happening right now, especially along the Strait of Hormuz. I mean, this is, this is something where we don't have a clear indication of how long this war is going to go for, how long the attacks by Iran on commercial shipping vessels are going to last for. And certainly, you that has huge global impacts and it's something that not just Australia is dealing with. So as it evolves and as the situation has evolved and Australians quite understandably went to make sure that they had enough fuel, especially people working who need fuel for their work, as that unfolded and there was places around the country where access to fuel became an issue, I think we have to respond accordingly. And so I think it's entirely appropriate the National Cabinet's meeting tomorrow, this This has got to be a coordinated effort across the state governments and also the federal government to ensure that it's going to the places across the country where we need it and that we've got a plan as this evolves. And it may evolve over time.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: Two oil refineries in the country and the government's clearly looking at extending their life beyond 2027. So, Dave Sharma, the big question is, are two oil refineries enough for a country like ours?

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DAVE SHARMA: No, no, no, probably not. And I would say, I mean, these two oil refineries were saved largely by the mechanisms in the Fuel Security Act, which was a piece of legislation we passed when last in government in 2021, which provided the mechanism for basically incentive payments to keep these refineries open. But it also allowed the minister of the day to set up what's called a minimum stockholding obligation, how much fuel reserves you hold at any one time. Now, that stockholding obligation has not been materially increased since that time, and no new refineries have been incentivised or increased since that time. So the framework exists already in legislation to do this, but the current Energy Minister has not been acting to deal with this issue.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: On that, Josh, I want to bring you in. Two oil refineries, it's not really enough, is it, in a country as large as ours that's so dependent on actually, fuel given the kind of tyranny of distance in this country?

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JOSH BURNS: Well, in my lifetime, Patricia, we haven't had a situation where there has been a major supply issue of fuel. What we have had over the recent weeks is a country that is attacking commercial shipping vessels through a 21-kilometre-wide piece of water where 20% of the world's crude oil travels, and that has a flow-on impact across the global oil supply. So I think that, like, the long-term planning of our energy needs and the long-term planning of our fuel needs isn't just based on how many oil refineries we can build. No one's saying that we need to go back and build more coal-fired power stations. We actually need to make sure that we're planning for the future. And what we also have, a reality now, is that we have a regime attacking commercial vessels. So it's, it's one of those situations where planning for the immediate is so important, and that's why the National Cabinet is being held tomorrow, and then also into the future, how we can manage our own fuel supply. But I agree with Dave in the sense that having the ability to process oil in Australia and refine oil in Australia is important, and having that capacity, as has been demonstrated, is having that sovereignty is important.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay. So there was, of course, the Truth Social post by the US president that named our country for not participating on defending the Strait of Hormuz earlier today. Andrew Hastie, who's a Liberal frontbencher, said it was a petulant statement from the US president. Dave Sharma, how would you describe it?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, I honestly think part of the art of foreign affairs or diplomacy, if you like, is knowing what to ignore and what to take seriously. I had a look at President Trump's Truth Social feed to dig out this tweet. There's probably been about 20 messages posted on there over the past 24 hours. The one where Australia is mentioned, I think we're in about line 12 or 15. I just wouldn't take it all that seriously.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: But is it petulant?

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DAVE SHARMA: I think it's consistent with how President Trump operates. I don't think there should be any particular surprise.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: So describe that to Australians.

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think he's a transactional president, But he'll often emote or articulate whatever he's feeling at a given moment on social media. Now, that doesn't mean that's his enduring direction or his strategic posture. And we need to be careful to look through taking what Trump says literally and taking what he says seriously. And I think this is a classic case in point. I wouldn't overreact here.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: OK, Josh Burns, was it petulant?

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JOSH BURNS: Patricia, If we spend all day commenting on the comments of the commentary, we will just—

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: He is the US President and he has mentioned our country.

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DAVE SHARMA: I agree with Josh here. Well, clearly you're a unity ticket.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: Let me put this to you, Josh, because many Australians would have heard what Andrew Hastie said and went, yeah, seemed pretty petulant to us. I wonder why there's so much carefulness around just calling out Donald Trump's petulance?

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JOSH BURNS: Because we're adults, Patricia, that are looking to act on behalf of Australia's national interest. And clearly the predictability of the US President is not something that, is the same of— I think that the US President thrives in chaos and thrives in unpredictability. And so what benefit is there for us to react in a way that potentially could be counter to Australia's national interest? It's just not particularly wise. And I know that Andrew Hastie might enjoy the sort of pushback and enjoy the sort of flex, but actually what's really important here is that we remain calm, we consider what's in Australia's best national interest, and clearly our only involvement in the whole situation right now is sending surveillance aeroplanes with ADF personnel to ensure that the UAE have the best chance of seeing whether missiles are coming in to civilian areas. That's what we're doing right now to help our friends in the region protect civilian infrastructure and civilian lives. That's a responsible thing to do. That's done on the basis of Australia's national interest. We have over 20,000 Australians living in the UAE, and obviously the Strait of Hormuz affects not just Australia but global oil supplies. And so I think we will work constructively as a country to ensure that it can be opened up as quickly as possible. And I'll stay off the President's Truth Social for my own social welfare.

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PATRICIA KARVELAS: Okay, well, there you go. Some people like the President being called out, other people think it's undiplomatic. I suppose our viewers will decide. But you were on a unity ticket on that one. Thank you very much.

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[ENDS]