Topics: Liberal leadership, Sydney protests

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Let's bring in my political panel for today. Peter Khalil is the Assistant Defence Minister, and Dave Sharma is a Liberal senator. Thank you both for coming in this afternoon. Peter, I'll start with you, the protests. The prime minister said last month that the aim of this visit was partly to create unity. Um, given the protests we've seen, has that achieved that?

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PETER KHALIL: Well, Steph, a couple of points on this. I think the prime minister clearly articulated the purpose of the trip was the, the president, um, having a ceremonial role, very similar to our governor-general, being invited to show solidarity and console Jewish Australians and, and the broader community over the mourning, mourning over the, the horrific loss of life. But he also equally pointed out the importance that peace in the Middle East is dependent upon us being able to engage with both Israelis and Palestinians, keep that dialogue open, even when we disagree with the actions. And, this government has disagreed with many of the Netanyahu government's actions, and we've we've sanctioned two Israeli cabinet ministers, we've called for a ceasefire at the UN or voted for it. we've, we've provided visas for Palestinians. We've increased humanitarian aid. We've recognized the state of Palestine. All issues that are in disagreement. Having said that, the president should be afforded the respect as we would expect our governor-general when she visits another country to be treated with that same respect, even if the people of that country disagree with our policies. That's just normal protocol.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: But do concede this hasn't really been a unifying moment for Australia as, as the prime minister had hoped, given those protests seen?

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PETER KHALIL: Well, with with respect to the protests, I think, and I've said this many, many times, there's a lot of suffering in the world. There's tens of thousands of people who've died in Gaza. There's tens of hundreds of thousands who have died in Sudan. There's tens of thousand dying in Iran as we speak. Australians have every right to protest, and raise those issues, freedom of expression, as long as it's done peacefully and respectfully. The vast majority of protests have been peaceful. Where there are incidents of incitement of hatred or incitement of violence or worse, violence itself, that is clearly unacceptable and breaches the law and needs to be addressed. So I, I've always supported the fundamental democratic right for people to, protest freely as long as it's peaceful and respectful.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Dave, do you think the visit has been worth it? Was, was this worth allowing a president to come to Australia given some of the, the anger that we've seen?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, I don't think we can allow these sorts of decisions about who we invite to Australia to be held hostage to a group of several thousand angry activists, to be honest. The purpose of the Israeli president's visit was to condole, offer condolences and commiserate and mourn with the families of some of the victims who were killed in that horrible terrorist attack. And he didn't come here with a message of antagonism or hate. He wasn't here trying to bring malice amongst our community. He was here for that simple purpose. And I wish that the people who are out protesting, I don't deny their right to protest, but I wish they'd been respectful of that purpose.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Two MPs in question time, um, didn't attend out of protest of the fact that Israel's president is here. Is that appropriate in your eyes?

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DAVE SHARMA: Look, they're free to make those decisions. They represent communities. I wouldn't make that decision, but I'd prefer that they do that than, rather than, you know, try and disrupt proceedings or create an obstacle to his visit. I respect people's right to have different views on this, but my view is quite clear on this that Israel's President Isaac Herzog, was welcome and should have been welcomed in Australia, and I'm glad he's made that visit.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Mm-hmm. We're talking about unity, social cohesion. Peter, you were the special envoy for, um, for social cohesion. What was the number one issue that was brought up when you were in that role? Was there a particular race or ethnicity that was sort of top of the list compared to others? Did you sort of notice a trend there?

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PETER KHALIL: Yeah. That's a good question, Steph. In, in the six to eight months I was in that role, one of the main things that came up in the consultations the engagement with so many different multicultural communities, so many different groups, was this polarisation that has occurred where people of different ethnic background or faith were starting to not talk to each other in a way that they should be. And I think social cohesion is really predicated on our ability, our commitment as Australians to the idea of a diverse, pluralistic society in which there's a multiethnic, multi-faith society, so that even if we disagree, and I disagree with Dave on a lot of things, we can do... we can still engage with each other peacefully and respectfully even if there's vehement disagreement. Now, that is a commitment that generations of Australians have made that makes our multicultural society work, and that's a commitment of ordinary citizens. There is a responsibility of political leaders to be clear and, and stand firm against divisive rhetoric, hateful speech, pass laws as we have around hate speech, for example. But even before the law enters the picture, there is a responsibility that Australians have, an obligation to be able to engage with each other without resorting to inciting hatred because of someone's faith or ethnicity or sexuality or other attribute, and certainly not resorting to violence. And this is why I say the vast majority of protests have been peaceful. They have every fundamental right to protest. Um, but where it crosses over into that incitement, that's unacceptable, and that's what breaks down our cohesion.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: And the prime minister's been talking about turning the temperature down, and especially even with politicians. I mean, this week's been pretty ugly here in parliament. I appreciate you're in the Senate, so it's not sitting. Um, do you think the way politicians have been acting in the chamber has gone a little bit too far and that you as MPs and senators aren't actually leading by example either?

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DAVE SHARMA: Look, I can't... I've, I've rarely been in Senate estimates the last week. I saw the speaker, Milton Dick, made a statement to the parliament before question time in the House of Representatives. I did actually ask some of my staff what's been going on. I must have missed this. So, I would just, as a general point, politicians should model good behaviour, but we also need to remember that modelling good behaviour doesn't mean we need to be agreeing all the time. It's a robust democracy. We're meant to have a contest of ideas. Um, our political system is, is adversarial by design, and it should be, but the adversarial nature needs to have clear limits. And I think, most politicians respect that. I know Peter certainly does, I certainly do.

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PETER KHALIL: Do you know, Steph, that ... and Dave might not know this. I'm not sure if it's in the Senate, but the dispatch box between the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition, the length of that is actually two sword lengths. So, the idea there is that you have this contest of ideas without resort to pulling out your sword and stabbing the other guy. That is what democracy is predicated on.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Yeah. Now, Peter, I'm going to leave you be for a little bit. It's, it's not Labor having a leadership problem at the moment. You, you've been there, done that in the past. Um, Dave, of course, we do have to ask about what's going on with the Liberals. Does Angus Taylor need to come out today and just explain whether he does want to run for the leadership or he's letting it go?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I think anyone who believes that they could do a better job in leading the Liberal Party right now, and it's a difficult time, yes, they should put their hands up and put their name forward and we should resolve this issue. I don't know if that's ... I don't know if Angus Taylor's intending to declare his candidacy. I don't know if anyone else is. I'm probably not much better informed than you and your readers on this. But it's important that the distraction that this leadership issue is continues to cause us, is put to bed one way or the other, because, I'm conscious that we're not doing the job that we should as elected representatives here to represent communities, or as an opposition in holding the government to account. And it's difficult to do that when all anyone is interested in, and all the media is interested in from us is who's up and who's down and what are the odds.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: To be fair, the reason we're asking is because you guys sell this out at the moment,

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DAVE SHARMA: I don't blame them. And it's natural that the media should be interested in this and it's, we are helping to create that story, and that's a problem, I agree.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Has Angus outlined why he would be a better leader or why there needs to be a leadership change?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, I've only seen the same public appearances you have, and

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STEPHANIE BORYS: I'm just asking if there's anything going on behind the scenes.

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DAVE SHARMA: No, I mean, I haven't seen ... obviously, Angus Taylor remains a member of the front front bench of the shadow ministry at the moment, and,

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STEPHANIE BORYS: But the fact there's this much chatter. Like, surely he needs to step down from the shadow front.

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, think if you, if you do not support the leader and/or if you have an intention to challenge the leader, yes, it's incumbent upon you to step down from the front bench. Now, all I'm I haven't heard any of this firsthand at All I'm seeing is second-hand reports, and I know it's the way that media reporting works, but, um, until such time as someone, I think, has said publicly, "I don't support the leader. I intend to challenge for the leadership," that's the time when they should be stepping down.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Ben Small says it's time for generational change with the leader. Do you agree with that?

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DAVE SHARMA: Well, um, no, not necessarily. And I don't know if the two putative names we're talking about here are actually, they're the same generation, to be honest. Um, but I think it is important, the broader point. I didn't see what Ben said, um, that we, I, do believe we have some good, talented, capable individuals in our party room who could be given more responsibility and could fulfill those roles, well.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Such as?

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DAVE SHARMA: Oh, look, I don't want to name names.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Oh, really? Come on. Just give me one.

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PETER KHALIL: You're looking at one, Steph.

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DAVE SHARMA: I don't want to name names. But it's, look, it's ... every political party in and, movement needs to renew periodically, just like a football team or a cricket team or/and some political

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Renewal need to now or stay status quo?

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DAVE SHARMA: No, I think we need to ... I do think where there needs to be a, bigger renewal. I think there's some, yeah, some good, talented people in our party room who could exercise some more responsibility, could fulfill that role well. And importantly, um, I mean, I'm very conscious that we have, as a political movement, a demographic challenge of sorts, in terms of, connecting with voters basically 55 and under. m, and so we do need people in positions of power who are 55 and under, to help communicate to those people, not just in a strict sense but so, you know, voters need to be able to identify with the politicians they're supporting. Their lived experience, their background, their profession, whatever it might be. and that's why, you know, a political party is more successful the more it reflects the composition of Australia as it stands today.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Talking to your colleagues at the moment, what's the vibe? I know you're not going to give me absolute insights to everything, but give me the vibe. Is there Is it frustration? Is it anger? Despair?

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DAVE SHARMA: I think a, a mix of all of those things. I think there's a, there's frustration, that um, anyone who takes the role of opposition leading, that's famously known as the hardest job in politics, I think there's some truth to that. Um, it's often quite difficult because of the challenges your colleagues present. You know, when we were last in opposition, I think we went through three opposition leaders in our first term, um, in opposition. That's not that unusual. but there ... I think there is some frustration that until we, get this issue settled, it's hard for us to get traction on issues that matter. I think a lot of us are quite focused that we think, um, there is a strong case to be made against this Labor government's record and there is a strong alternative to offer, but at the moment, we're not making that case and we are not articulating that offer.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: I'll leave you there for now, Dave. I'll let you go, but in case you're getting being told which way to vote - let me know if that happens. Peter, on a more serious note, though, um, today the AFP released a statement about two, um, Chinese nationals that have been charged, um, by the counter foreign interference task force. They're alleged to have been gathering information on a Canberra Buddhist Association. How concerned should we be about foreign interference?

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PETER KHALIL: Yeah. that's a good ... Look, there, there is a serious issue that ... and a challenge that we're facing. There is a significant amount of foreign interference, um, of foreign, um, even espionage and things like that, which a lot of it goes under the surface and is not seen. It's dealt with by our security and intelligence agencies. We passed a number of laws,  some of those in, in ... when the coalition was still in government, some of them when Labor took power, to deal with foreign interference, to protect critical infrastructure and so on. So there is a good set of laws that are there around that to deal with that, um, and that's why you're seeing some of these reports emerge. Um, I will say this, it, it is difficult because this is happening right across, um, from a number of different groups and other countries, state actors, non-state actors, and so on. But I have some confidence in the ability of our security agencies and intelligence agencies to be, be able to catch those efforts being made to undermine our democratic system and, and to interfere in our communities, particularly the diaspora communities. So, there's been a fair bit of work on that. You would have seen, we, um, actually expelled a number of Iranian, diplomats who were involved in some of that, previously. So, um, we're very much on top of that issue.

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STEPHANIE BORYS: Peter Khalil and Dave Sharma, thank you so much for your time on Afternoon Briefing.

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PETER KHALIL: Thank you.

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DAVE SHARMA: Thanks for having me.

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[ENDS]