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Transcript

E&OE.......................

DEBORAH KNIGHT: With Canada now joining the UK and France in supporting the move, Federal Treasurer Jim Chalmers today called it a matter of when, not if. Joining us live with his reaction is Liberal Senator Dave Sharma, our former ambassador to Israel. Senator, welcome. Dave Sharma, can you hear me?

DAVE SHARMA: Yes, I can hear you, Deb. Have you got me there?

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Yes, loud and clear. Now, there's real international momentum building on this. There's a sense of urgency considering the suffering in Gaza. Should Australia be next to set out a timeline for recognising a Palestinian state?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I think it's important that we consider these two issues separately. I know they're linked in some people's minds, but they are quite distinct issues. One is the humanitarian situation in Gaza, which is miserable, is desperate, does need alleviation and does need addressing. And the other question is, how do you secure peace between the Israeli people and the Palestinian people in future, and how do you set the basis for a durable peace in the region? That's quite a separate question. And the question of Palestinian recognition, whatever your views on that, are not going to have an impact in the here and now on the humanitarian situation.

DEBORAH KNIGHT: But many world leaders believe that pressure does need to be brought to bear on Israel to bring about some urgent change. And that is why we've seen countries, many of them allies of Australia, pushing for recognition of the Palestinian state.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think there is a good case to be made that Israel needs to do more to alleviate the humanitarian situation in Gaza. I've said as much as publicly, many other world leaders have done so as well.

DEBORAH KNIGHT: What do you think of Benjamin Netanyahu's comments that there is no starvation occurring in Gaza?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, on this one, I agree with President Trump where he said it's quite clear that there is. And I think all the overwhelming evidence that I've seen suggests that regardless of whether every picture is authentic, regardless of whether Hamas is responsible or not, or what they're doing to commandeer supplies, it's clear that civilian population of Gaza is suffering. They are not getting enough food or medical equipment or medical aid. And that needs to change.

DEBORAH KNIGHT: So, in light of that, is offering to recognise Palestinian statehood a way of bringing pressure on Israel to make some change?

DAVE SHARMA: No, I don't think it is. I think if you want to address the humanitarian situation in Gaza, you should address that directly with Israel, with Egypt, with neighbouring countries, with the aid community. And I think actually introducing this other issue, recognition, which is unrelated, could have unpredictable consequences in terms of Israel's attitude to the world and Their willingness to cooperate in alleviating the humanitarian situation in Gaza, and that's my view, is that they should be treated quite separately. Yes, I would like to see a two state solution. Yes, I would like to see a Palestinian state emerge over time. But so dictating the timeline and pace for that, when clearly and most world leaders recognise this, the preconditions for a functioning, viable Palestinian state are not there, I think risks unleashing all manner of unintended consequences and actually making the region less stable, less secure, less peaceful.

DEBORAH KNIGHT: And I know some Jewish leaders fear that recognising Palestinian statehood now could actually delay the release of Israeli hostages. Could it potentially embolden Hamas? What's your view?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, the risk is here that people will ask, what has changed, that all these states have changed their position on Palestinian recognition. Um, and Hamas would say, well, it's us. It's because of what we did on the 7th of October. It's because of our terrorist attacks. It's because we took 250 Israeli, Israel, Israelis hostages, because we continue to hold 50 of them. And that will weaken moderate or sensible or Palestinian political elements that are reconciled to living with the Jewish people alongside them, reconciled to a state of Israel. It will weaken institutions like the Palestinian Authority and it will strengthen extremist actors like Hamas. I think that is a real risk.

DEBORAH KNIGHT: Well, let's hope that there is some solution for the region and for the world for that matter too. Dave Sharma, always good to talk. Thanks so much.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much, Deb.

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