Transcript | 4BC Brisbane Drive | 23 September 2025

September 23, 2025

Topics: Palestinian recognition, Trump Albanese meeting

E&OE.......................

GARY HARDGRAVE: It is true our prime minister has addressed world leaders at the UN, uh, conference in the General Assembly in New York. It's an annual event and he's speaking about why Australia's recognized a Palestinian state, a country which doesn't exist. Australia's one of nine Western nations which have made the formal recognition at the UN. The stan has done. All the stans have done it. Russia, North Korea, San Marino's in as well, Luxembourg, Belgium. None of them have any skin in the game, as far as I'm concerned. Sussan Ley, the opposition leader, has written to the Republican members of the US Congress letting them know the Coalition opposition would revoke, if they became government, would revoke the recognition. Now one bloke who knows more about Israel than anybody else I frankly know, in the sense that he was there as Australia's representative for many years, a former ambassador of Australia to Israel, he's now a New South Wales Liberal senator, Dave Sharma is joining me. David, always good to talk to you. Uh, the government's decision to rush, I think rush this recognition, it is about domestic politics. It makes no sense to me what they've done.

DAVE SHARMA: Good afternoon, Gary. Great to join you. I think that's exactly right. I don't think that this decision is anything more than empty symbolism or gesture politics, as some would say. And I think it's bereft of any substance. But it also, even on the terms that Anthony Albanese has put out for it, what it does is, is not make a two-state solution more likely. It does not make a Palestinian state more likely. In fact, what it does is makes both of those things more remote and more distant by encouraging Hamas and awarding Hamas with terror state, and that's gonna make any enduring peace in the region that much harder.

GARY HARDGRAVE: I mean, That’s my take on it. I heard Marco Rubio, the US Secretary of State, their foreign minister, say, about a month ago now, he said, "You can't have a two-state solution, uh, while there's still terrorists in charge of one of the states. You've gotta get the peace before you can get the diplomatic recognition." I thought that was common sense. I don't understand why the Prime Minister’s rushed this.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I don't think you can explain it other than with reference to domestic politics, and I think it shows. You know, his willingness to use domestic policy or use foreign policy for domestic political purposes, but also his inexperience on the world stage. I mean, the fact that we have a foreign policy that is now welcomed by a terrorist group, Hamas condemned by an erstwhile ally of Australia, Israel, and treated with contempt by our most important security partner, the United States, just shows you what a strange trifecta owe found ourselves in here.

GARY HARDGRAVE: Yeah. And it seems like he's all dressed up and no one to meet. Uh, I mean, the US president, Donald Trump's, I think, taken the opportunity, playing with him like a, a kitten with a ball of wool. "Oh, yeah, look, I'm... They're trying to get a meeting. Like to do that..." No. You're not... I'm not available. I mean, he's now been frozen out. He basically is now gonna go, what? To the UK. I guess he's gonna try and find some friends there. I, I find this whole thing, Dave, all jokes aside, incredibly embarrassing for Australia.

DAVE SHARMA: I think it is humiliating. I don't think there's any way around it. But Anthony Albanese keeps turning up, keeps talking up the prospect of having a meeting, and keeps being disappointed, whereas all of our allies and partners, many of whom have less close traditional relationships with the United States have been able to get one. I mean, Trump has just come back from the United Kingdom. That's the third meeting that Keir Starmer, the UK Prime Minister, has had with Trump. Mark Carney, Canada... And Canada and the US aren't getting along particularly well at the moment. He's had two meetings. The Japanese Prime Minister's had two meetings. The German Chancellor's had two meetings. You know, the Korean president, who was only just elected, has already had a face-to-face meeting with Donald Trump. And yet Anthony Albanese has not been able to manage it. I think it's a mix of inability on Australia's part, but it's also, frankly, the low regard with which we're held in Washington at the moment.

GARY HARDGRAVE: So you've been our ambassador to Israel. And the effect in Israel of recognizing a country which technically does not exist and actually run currently by, Hamas terrorists who are dedicated to the death of Israel. I mean, what would the impact in Israel be, you know, from your experience?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think they've just written Australia off as a serious player. And I just think that, you know, they, they don't take us seriously. They put this down to domestic political posturing and Anthony Albanese and Penny Wong's traditional left-wing student politics progressive views. But I think they're just a little aghast at this strange turn of events that Australia has embarked upon. I mean, traditionally, we have been seen as a serious and credible player in the Middle East, with a serious intellectual contribution to make. You know, we're not the, the principal outside actor, that's the United States, but we've been taken seriously because we've dealt with the issues seriously. This is just student politics. It's fanciful. The idea that by recognizing effectively a state governed by a terrorist organization, that we listed as a terrorist organization, will do anything to help bring peace about, or that Israel will lie down and accept it, it's just so detached from reality.

GARY HARDGRAVE: We're the sixth oldest continuous democracy in the world, and I know, Dave, you've heard me say that plenty of times before. Sixth oldest continuous democracy, we're in a pretty unique club. It's the, you know, the UK, United States, Canada, Switzerland, Sweden, then Australia, then New Zealand. Now, I just think we we need to have a different set of, of values, Australian values associated with this decision. I just can't believe we've gone down, down this path. Now, Sussan Ley has written to Republican members of Congress saying that they would revoke this, but in the practical sense, I'm not sure that that's gonna happen anytime soon. We'll see, God willing, whether there's a change of government in Australia, but Dave Sharma, how on earth would the coalition undo, unscramble the egg?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, if we're elected, we have committed to reverse this and it's look, certainly some enduring damage will have been done to our relationship with Israel and the United States, but in practical terms, it's not that difficult to turn back because Australia recognizing a Palestinian state does not bring it about and that's what's so sort of hollow about this gesture. All it means in practical terms is that the Palestinian diplomatic representative in Canberra is no longer called a representative. He or she is now called an ambassador, and the Australian diplomatic representative in Ramallah in the West Bank is now called an ambassador as well. So all we really need to do is adjust some of the protocols and titles, and we will be back to where we were beforehand. We need to obviously announce it, but in practical terms, it changes very little, even though it does us, reputationally, a lot of damage, what the Labor government has done.

GARY HARDGRAVE: But the fact that the Palestinian authority is dominated, even though there's some sort of puppet between Hamas officials and the Palestinian officials, it's dominated by Hamas. I mean, they killed three people yesterday, the day that we signed up to this recognition. They killed three people because they said they were somehow or other, talking with and working with Israel. I mean, Hamas has got no honour. I don't know how we think we have any honour by being associated with them.

DAVE SHARMA: That's quite right. I mean, that's, yes, that's summarily executed people yesterday that they accused of being collaborators. They certainly didn't have anything like a trial or a judicial process around them. And look, the Palestinian authority, which is the entity in control of the West Bank as opposed to Gaza, I mean, Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian authority leader is now, I think it's 20 years into a four-year presidential term. They haven't had a presidential election there since 2005. So Anthony Albanese has said that all of these decisions were gonna be contingent on fresh elections in the Palestinian authority, the removal of Hamas from power, a reformed Palestinian authority that's committed to governing the interest of its people, not governing to pursue a conflict with Israel. None of those conditions have been met, and Antony Albanese has given up any leverage we had by basically writing out this check up front.

GARY HARDGRAVE: What does this do to our relationship with the US and, and other countries who've said, "No, we're not gonna change our principle on this matter. Israel needs to be supported." What does this do to our reputation with them?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think it just means that they don't think we're a serious player in the area anymore, that our views are not to be taken seriously, and that, you know, that they think we're involved in, you know, gesture politics and you student unions moralizing about an issue in a conflict that's deeply complicated and needs adults in the room to help resolve it. So, you know, I think we've been marked down considerably in Washington as a serious player. And bear in mind, this is after the haphazardness of the last two weeks in the Pacific when Antony Albanese promised he was gonna have a security agreement signed with Vanuatu, which didn't materialize, promised he was going to do one with Papua New Guinea, which didn't materialize. It just looks like incompetence on the global stage.

GARY HARDGRAVE: Well, Dave, you're a senator. I used to be a member and a minister. I've called for him and the foreign minister to resign when they come back from Australia. I just think that's how incompetent they are. I know that's not gonna happen, but I think they have made hollow gestures, as you say, in our name. I think they've embarrassed us. I think it's time for both of them to go. They've both gotta take some responsibility for this because you hear cancel culture all the time. This is consequence culture. They can't do this to us without actually being accountable to us in some way, shape, or form. This is a huge issue.

DAVE SHARMA: I think it is, and I think it's got many more chapters to play out yet. I think Antony Albanese thought this would be straightforward. He could go and give a speech at the UN and everyone would applaud him and he'd return home a hero. I think he's realizing, and Penny Wong is realizing, that this is a lot more complicated than they've really... You know, opened a Pandora's box of difficulties here for Australia and repercussions that are gonna have consequences for us as a nation, for some years down the track.

GARY HARDGRAVE: Indeed, I would have thought so. Well, look, if the coalition can get rid of net zero and come up with a better policy on that front, you might actually be able to talk your way into office, Dave Sharma. I wish you well. Thank you for your time.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks Gary, for having me.

GARY HARDGRAVE: Good on you. Dave Sharma, New South Wales Liberal Senator

[ENDS]

Senator Dave Sharma

Media Appearances

Transcript | 4BC Brisbane Drive | 23 September 2025

Transcript | 4BC Brisbane Drive | 23 September 2025

Transcript | 4BC Brisbane Drive | 23 September 2025

September 23, 2025

Topics: Palestinian recognition, Trump Albanese meeting

E&OE.......................

GARY HARDGRAVE: It is true our prime minister has addressed world leaders at the UN, uh, conference in the General Assembly in New York. It's an annual event and he's speaking about why Australia's recognized a Palestinian state, a country which doesn't exist. Australia's one of nine Western nations which have made the formal recognition at the UN. The stan has done. All the stans have done it. Russia, North Korea, San Marino's in as well, Luxembourg, Belgium. None of them have any skin in the game, as far as I'm concerned. Sussan Ley, the opposition leader, has written to the Republican members of the US Congress letting them know the Coalition opposition would revoke, if they became government, would revoke the recognition. Now one bloke who knows more about Israel than anybody else I frankly know, in the sense that he was there as Australia's representative for many years, a former ambassador of Australia to Israel, he's now a New South Wales Liberal senator, Dave Sharma is joining me. David, always good to talk to you. Uh, the government's decision to rush, I think rush this recognition, it is about domestic politics. It makes no sense to me what they've done.

DAVE SHARMA: Good afternoon, Gary. Great to join you. I think that's exactly right. I don't think that this decision is anything more than empty symbolism or gesture politics, as some would say. And I think it's bereft of any substance. But it also, even on the terms that Anthony Albanese has put out for it, what it does is, is not make a two-state solution more likely. It does not make a Palestinian state more likely. In fact, what it does is makes both of those things more remote and more distant by encouraging Hamas and awarding Hamas with terror state, and that's gonna make any enduring peace in the region that much harder.

GARY HARDGRAVE: I mean, That’s my take on it. I heard Marco Rubio, the US Secretary of State, their foreign minister, say, about a month ago now, he said, "You can't have a two-state solution, uh, while there's still terrorists in charge of one of the states. You've gotta get the peace before you can get the diplomatic recognition." I thought that was common sense. I don't understand why the Prime Minister’s rushed this.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I don't think you can explain it other than with reference to domestic politics, and I think it shows. You know, his willingness to use domestic policy or use foreign policy for domestic political purposes, but also his inexperience on the world stage. I mean, the fact that we have a foreign policy that is now welcomed by a terrorist group, Hamas condemned by an erstwhile ally of Australia, Israel, and treated with contempt by our most important security partner, the United States, just shows you what a strange trifecta owe found ourselves in here.

GARY HARDGRAVE: Yeah. And it seems like he's all dressed up and no one to meet. Uh, I mean, the US president, Donald Trump's, I think, taken the opportunity, playing with him like a, a kitten with a ball of wool. "Oh, yeah, look, I'm... They're trying to get a meeting. Like to do that..." No. You're not... I'm not available. I mean, he's now been frozen out. He basically is now gonna go, what? To the UK. I guess he's gonna try and find some friends there. I, I find this whole thing, Dave, all jokes aside, incredibly embarrassing for Australia.

DAVE SHARMA: I think it is humiliating. I don't think there's any way around it. But Anthony Albanese keeps turning up, keeps talking up the prospect of having a meeting, and keeps being disappointed, whereas all of our allies and partners, many of whom have less close traditional relationships with the United States have been able to get one. I mean, Trump has just come back from the United Kingdom. That's the third meeting that Keir Starmer, the UK Prime Minister, has had with Trump. Mark Carney, Canada... And Canada and the US aren't getting along particularly well at the moment. He's had two meetings. The Japanese Prime Minister's had two meetings. The German Chancellor's had two meetings. You know, the Korean president, who was only just elected, has already had a face-to-face meeting with Donald Trump. And yet Anthony Albanese has not been able to manage it. I think it's a mix of inability on Australia's part, but it's also, frankly, the low regard with which we're held in Washington at the moment.

GARY HARDGRAVE: So you've been our ambassador to Israel. And the effect in Israel of recognizing a country which technically does not exist and actually run currently by, Hamas terrorists who are dedicated to the death of Israel. I mean, what would the impact in Israel be, you know, from your experience?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think they've just written Australia off as a serious player. And I just think that, you know, they, they don't take us seriously. They put this down to domestic political posturing and Anthony Albanese and Penny Wong's traditional left-wing student politics progressive views. But I think they're just a little aghast at this strange turn of events that Australia has embarked upon. I mean, traditionally, we have been seen as a serious and credible player in the Middle East, with a serious intellectual contribution to make. You know, we're not the, the principal outside actor, that's the United States, but we've been taken seriously because we've dealt with the issues seriously. This is just student politics. It's fanciful. The idea that by recognizing effectively a state governed by a terrorist organization, that we listed as a terrorist organization, will do anything to help bring peace about, or that Israel will lie down and accept it, it's just so detached from reality.

GARY HARDGRAVE: We're the sixth oldest continuous democracy in the world, and I know, Dave, you've heard me say that plenty of times before. Sixth oldest continuous democracy, we're in a pretty unique club. It's the, you know, the UK, United States, Canada, Switzerland, Sweden, then Australia, then New Zealand. Now, I just think we we need to have a different set of, of values, Australian values associated with this decision. I just can't believe we've gone down, down this path. Now, Sussan Ley has written to Republican members of Congress saying that they would revoke this, but in the practical sense, I'm not sure that that's gonna happen anytime soon. We'll see, God willing, whether there's a change of government in Australia, but Dave Sharma, how on earth would the coalition undo, unscramble the egg?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, if we're elected, we have committed to reverse this and it's look, certainly some enduring damage will have been done to our relationship with Israel and the United States, but in practical terms, it's not that difficult to turn back because Australia recognizing a Palestinian state does not bring it about and that's what's so sort of hollow about this gesture. All it means in practical terms is that the Palestinian diplomatic representative in Canberra is no longer called a representative. He or she is now called an ambassador, and the Australian diplomatic representative in Ramallah in the West Bank is now called an ambassador as well. So all we really need to do is adjust some of the protocols and titles, and we will be back to where we were beforehand. We need to obviously announce it, but in practical terms, it changes very little, even though it does us, reputationally, a lot of damage, what the Labor government has done.

GARY HARDGRAVE: But the fact that the Palestinian authority is dominated, even though there's some sort of puppet between Hamas officials and the Palestinian officials, it's dominated by Hamas. I mean, they killed three people yesterday, the day that we signed up to this recognition. They killed three people because they said they were somehow or other, talking with and working with Israel. I mean, Hamas has got no honour. I don't know how we think we have any honour by being associated with them.

DAVE SHARMA: That's quite right. I mean, that's, yes, that's summarily executed people yesterday that they accused of being collaborators. They certainly didn't have anything like a trial or a judicial process around them. And look, the Palestinian authority, which is the entity in control of the West Bank as opposed to Gaza, I mean, Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian authority leader is now, I think it's 20 years into a four-year presidential term. They haven't had a presidential election there since 2005. So Anthony Albanese has said that all of these decisions were gonna be contingent on fresh elections in the Palestinian authority, the removal of Hamas from power, a reformed Palestinian authority that's committed to governing the interest of its people, not governing to pursue a conflict with Israel. None of those conditions have been met, and Antony Albanese has given up any leverage we had by basically writing out this check up front.

GARY HARDGRAVE: What does this do to our relationship with the US and, and other countries who've said, "No, we're not gonna change our principle on this matter. Israel needs to be supported." What does this do to our reputation with them?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think it just means that they don't think we're a serious player in the area anymore, that our views are not to be taken seriously, and that, you know, that they think we're involved in, you know, gesture politics and you student unions moralizing about an issue in a conflict that's deeply complicated and needs adults in the room to help resolve it. So, you know, I think we've been marked down considerably in Washington as a serious player. And bear in mind, this is after the haphazardness of the last two weeks in the Pacific when Antony Albanese promised he was gonna have a security agreement signed with Vanuatu, which didn't materialize, promised he was going to do one with Papua New Guinea, which didn't materialize. It just looks like incompetence on the global stage.

GARY HARDGRAVE: Well, Dave, you're a senator. I used to be a member and a minister. I've called for him and the foreign minister to resign when they come back from Australia. I just think that's how incompetent they are. I know that's not gonna happen, but I think they have made hollow gestures, as you say, in our name. I think they've embarrassed us. I think it's time for both of them to go. They've both gotta take some responsibility for this because you hear cancel culture all the time. This is consequence culture. They can't do this to us without actually being accountable to us in some way, shape, or form. This is a huge issue.

DAVE SHARMA: I think it is, and I think it's got many more chapters to play out yet. I think Antony Albanese thought this would be straightforward. He could go and give a speech at the UN and everyone would applaud him and he'd return home a hero. I think he's realizing, and Penny Wong is realizing, that this is a lot more complicated than they've really... You know, opened a Pandora's box of difficulties here for Australia and repercussions that are gonna have consequences for us as a nation, for some years down the track.

GARY HARDGRAVE: Indeed, I would have thought so. Well, look, if the coalition can get rid of net zero and come up with a better policy on that front, you might actually be able to talk your way into office, Dave Sharma. I wish you well. Thank you for your time.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks Gary, for having me.

GARY HARDGRAVE: Good on you. Dave Sharma, New South Wales Liberal Senator

[ENDS]

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