Tuesday, 17 June 2025

Topics: Israel-Iran conflict, sanctions, Australia’s defence spending & capability

E&OE………

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Conflict between Israel and Iran continues to escalate with bombings on both sides. The thing that just strikes me is that Israel has been targeting military and economic installations in Iran, whereas Iran has been targeting civilian areas of Israel. The Australian government's response seems to be a little bit all over the place. To talk to us about this, somebody who has a unique perspective on the region is the Shadow Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury. He was the former ambassador to Israel, Dave Sharma. Dave, good morning.

DAVE SHARMA: Stephen. Great to join you.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: This is an extraordinary situation we find ourselves in, but there was a certain an inevitability with Iran trying to create nuclear weapons that Israel really had no choice but to launch this pre-EBIS strike?

DAVE SHARMA: I think this conflict has been building for a couple of decades and certainly since the 7th of October 2023 Hamas terrorist attacks which were supported by Iran. Israel's taken a view and understandably after the horrific terrorist attacks that it can no longer afford to wait for its enemies to strike and if they're committed to that it's destruction like Iran is you know theologically politically as a matter of policy then they need to move to remove that source of threat. And they've given diplomacy a chance. the US and Iran had attempted to reach a deal, but Iran was not willing to concede on some fundamentals. And so we are where we are today as a result. But I'm glad you mentioned in your introductory comments that, you know, Israel is targeting, as far as I can tell, military and weapons installations, whereas Tehran seems to be firing indiscriminately at civilian areas.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: We're seeing, I mean, some of the vision coming out of Israel, you can see the apartment blocks that have been hit by these missile attacks. Does this mean that the Iron Dome is not working, or is it just that.. the extent of the barrage is so large that it can't catch them all?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, so they've got a number of different systems, Iron Dome, David Sling, Arrow 2, 3, which are all designed for different missiles. But look, Iran seems to be firing in the order of, you know, 50 to 100 ballistic missiles in a single sortie, and inevitably some of those get through, and even some of those that are shot down, if the debris lands on a builtup or residential area, it can still do some damage. So I think their missile defences have meant that they've saved a lot more lives than would have otherwise been the case. But sadly and unfortunately, some are still finding a target.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: I spoke to former Foreign Minister Alexander Downer on the programme yesterday, and he quite rightly pointed out that the Australian government's response seems to be more geared towards domestic politics. Are you surprised at the position we're taking here? It's almost like we're trying to have two Bob each way, but there are calls from within the left of the Labor Party to sanction Israel, but surely Iran is the side that needs to be sanctioned here.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I just found their response bizarre. I mean, they seem to be focused more on process than on outcome. You know, this is a, Iran is a country that, you know, is pursuing weapons of mass destruction, that has funded and supported and trained armed terrorist groups in the region that have sowed instability and that is a terrible repressor of women and other minorities in its own country, one of the most prolific users of the death penalty. I think we should all agree in Australia that Iran has not been a force for good in the region under this current leadership. So while we seem to be taking a stance where we talk a lot about process but not about outcome is beyond me. And I was also astonished to see that Foreign Minister Penny Wong spoke to the Iranian Foreign Minister before she spoke to the Israeli Foreign Minister. I mean, you know, we are not neutral as to the outcome here. We want to see an Iran that is no longer able to undermine, damage and destroy its neighbours.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Are you surprised that Israel hasn't deliberately targeted the Iranian leadership? And we saw Benjamin Netanyahu, I think it was yesterday or the day before, calling for Iranians to rise up against their own leadership. Is that, I mean, I can't imagine that the Iranian leadership is going to let that happen.

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I don't think the goal of Israel's operation is regime change i think they their goal was to remove source of the threat to them which is why they're focused on you know nuclear weapons senior military figures and components that would be used in a nuclear weapons production cascade um But certainly the regime in Iran is not popular. I mean, there have been a number of popular uprisings over the last decade or two. It clearly lacks legitimacy or support amongst its people. And the one thing that it's been able to say is, we'll defend your security. Well, that's been clearly undermined as a result of Israel's military operation.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: The escalation in the Middle East at the moment, is that significant given all of the talk about our own defence spending and our own defence capabilities at the moment?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I think what it shows you is, and we see this around the world now, that conflict is increasingly being resorted to and used by actors politically because in many respects, you know, the world's diplomatic system, the UN, Security Council, international law is failing. And in that sort of or that sort of context globally, it means Australia needs to be more prepared for conflict in our region or potentially even involving us, which means we need to have a higher state of defence readiness and a higher level of capability to defend ourselves. So I think it has, what we've seen between Russia and Ukraine, what we've seen in the Middle East, what we've we've seen elsewhere around the world should be telling us, you know, they're warning signs really that we need to get our defence house in order.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Are you surprised then that the Defence Minister and Acting Prime Minister Richard Marles says that it's inevitable that Australia would have to be involved in any conflict between the US and China?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I don't think any minister in the government should sort of speculate about contingencies or scenarios. I mean, you need to plan for all of them, but you don't necessarily want to speculate about them openly. But I don't disagree with what he said, that China's actions have been a destabilising force in the region and their level of military buildup, their lack of communication about their military intentions to their partners is causing tension and anxiety.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: You would still be in contact with a number of people in Israel. What's the mood like? What are the people that you know over there saying to you?

DAVE SHARMA: The ones I'm in touch with and I am in touch with them quite frequently. They're obviously alarmed and quite scared. They're going to bomb shelters multiple times a night but as you've seen with those recent strikes, just because you're in a bomb shelter is not necessarily a guarantee of safety. So they're alarmed. But I think there's also a sense of resolve and a view that Israel has to deal with this problem. They can't allow Iran to obtain nuclear weapons and then act on their desire to destroy them. And whatever the price that has to be paid to achieve that is one that they are prepared to pay.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Dave, great to speak to you this morning Thanks for your time.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much for having me on, Stephen.

[ENDS]

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