Topics: Pollie pedal, Palestinian recognition

E&OE.......................

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Dave Sharma, the Shadow Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury, and former Ambassador to Israel, is literally on his bike in the Clare Valley in South as part of this year's Pollie pedal. Dave, good morning.

DAVE SHARMA: Good morning, Stephen. Great to join you.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: You know, I remember the very first Pollie pedal, which I think was about 1996/97, and I, somehow I got roped into doing a barbecue for the riders at Parramatta Park in Sydney. And back then it was Tony Abbott and Charlie Lynn and a few others but it's grown into something of massive proportions these days.

DAVE SHARMA: It is. There's about 40 or 50 of us participating. Not all politicians, I hasten to add. But, Tony Abbott is still here. He's riding with us as well so he's the stalwart of the Polypedal, and this year it's in support of Wandering Warriors, which is a veterans' organization that particularly looks after people who've served in Special Operations Command, or the SAS.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: So where did you start and where are you finishing?

DAVE SHARMA: We did a circle around Adelaide on Sunday. Yesterday we rode from Adelaide to Clare, which is about 150 kilometers, and today we're heading southwest from here to a town called Wallaroo, which is about 100 kilometers away, and then there's another four or five days after that but I don't know the full route details after that. Only looking one day ahead.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: I know, actually the last time I was involved in it, again it was when Tony was leading it. He was the opposition leader at the time, of the 2013 election and the riders all had to ride up Dorrigo Mountain up on the Mid-North Coast of New South Wales and a few of them chose to ride in a car but Tony actually rode all the way up it so I'll give him credit for that. Um, and he's a, strong rider, Tony.

DAVE SHARMA: He certainly is. 

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Now the reason I wanted to talk to you Dave, as a former Ambassador to Israel, you would be across everything that's going on in the Middle East at the moment. We've now had the Australian government, alongside the UK and Canada, officially recognize a Palestinian state. I guess the question is, what happens next? Given that there had already been 140-odd countries that recognize Palestine, what do we expect is gonna change?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, the truth is no Palestinian state can be created unless the UN Security Council agrees and the US sits on the UN Security Council, it's a veto-wielding member, a permanent member, and the United States is not gonna allow that to happen because it overturns decades of their policy and indeed decades of bipartisan foreign policy. So, the recognition from Australia is mainly symbolic in nature but it does strengthen Hamas, and it does weaken, you know, more practical elements within the Palestinian body politic as well as on the Israel side as well. So I fear it makes the resolution of the conflict in Gaza harder and it also makes the eventual achievement of a two-state solution more remote.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Because the Prime Minister continues this line that Hamas can play no part in any future Palestinian administration, but Hamas are gonna be determinants of that. They'll decide for themselves what they do, I would have thought.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, that's exactly right and, look, the Prime Minister's basically paid all the money upfront and given away any leverage he has because, you know, this has been a political win now for Hamas. They've helped achieve Australian recognition of a Palestinian state and there's no way that he can compel any of these so-called conditions he keeps mentioning; reform of the Palestinian Authority, no further role for Hamas. Why would Hamas do that? They've already achieved what they want to achieve and they're showing that their strategy, which includes those horrible terrorist attacks of the 7th of October but also a number of conflicts and kidnappings they've started and conducted over the years, they've shown that their strategy works.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: But they've already come out and praised the announcement by the three governments particularly well the four governments if you include France, which sort of flies in the face of everything that the Prime Minister's told us.

DAVE SHARMA: Exactly right. And you see, I mean, you know, the people that are welcoming this decision is a listed terrorist organization, Hamas, and the people that are appalled by it is a longstanding friend and partner, Israel, and people that are disturbed by it are the United States, our most important security ally. It's a very strange position for Australian foreign policy to be in, a very shameful position for Australian foreign policy to be in where it's being welcomed by terrorist organization and disavowed by some of our closest allies.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Dave, as a former diplomat, you know how these things work. Do you think the fact that Anthony Albanese's been left off a list of official meetings with the President as part of this UN Assembly meeting is part of this or is this just, um... Because I know he was supposed to meet with the Prime Minister or the President I should say, on the day of Charlie Kirk's memorial, which the President went to, which obviously threw a spanner in the works there. But is this now the US thumbing their nose back at us?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, I'd say that this is part of an ongoing pattern by this Labor government to not put any real effort into the US relationship. I mean, the United Kingdom has a different policy to the Trump administration over the Middle East. As you mentioned, they also did this act of Palestinian recognition. But Keir Starmer has met with President Trump I think three times. You know, the Japanese Prime Minister, outgoing Japanese Prime Minister has met twice. Tthe German Chancellor has met twice. The leader of Korea has met once. But Anthony Albanese, who's been in office longer than nearly any of them hasn't managed to meet President Trump once. I think that's a real failing for Australian diplomacy.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: From the perspective of the two-state solution, that always has been a bipartisan approach here in Australia. The problem is that Palestine as it stands at the moment doesn't meet the four requirements for statehood and one of those is definable borders. How do you ever achieve that?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, the way you achieve it, and this is the way that we've always thought it should be achieved in both sides of politics, is by a negotiation between Israel and a Palestinian representative body that's committed to co-exist alongside Israel and doesn't want to just have Armistice lines that they can then use to launch another attack on Israel. And that's why our view has always been that ultimately it's only when you have negotiations and both sides accept the other's existence and accept the delineation of borders, that you could ever have a sustainable peace in the Middle East. And that has been Labor's position up until the last year. I mean, which you hear from people like Mike Kelly, who'd be well known to your he will articulate that position.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: The other thing that concerned me about this was comments by Benjamin Netanyahu that there will never be a Palestinian state west of the Jordan River. That can't be helpful either.

DAVE SHARMA: No, and I'd say that these sorts of acts by Australia, I mean, they've emboldened or strengthened extremists on both sides, it saddens me to say. I mean, you'll, you've seen very hardline elements within the Israeli Parliament and the Cabinet, I would say, "Well, now, you know, our response is that we're gonna annex chunks of the West Bank, uh, which would be part of a future Palestinian homeland." I think that's deeply unhelpful as well but it shows that this move is only made the prospects of a two-state solution more remote, not more likely.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: And, the thing that really struck me was that this announcement was made on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, one of the most, the holiest days on the Jewish calendar. That couldn't have been a deliberate decision.

DAVE SHARMA: Look, to be fair to the Albanese government, no, I don't think that was. It just happens to be that UN Leaders Week, which is when all this is happening, is coinciding with Jewish New Year, Rosh Hashanah, this year. But it is true that the timing is still very unfortunate. I don't think it was intended by the Labor government, but that's how it's turned out.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: Extraordinary. Dave, good luck with the rest of the Pollie Pedal 1998 it was there that I was involved in that barbecue, and raised $7.4 million so far for the Pollie Pedal, so good on you for taking part in it.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much, Stephen. Good to chat.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: All the best. Dave Sharma, the Shadow Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury, and former Ambassador to Israel.

[ENDS]