Tuesday 12 August 2025

Topics: Palestinian statehood

E&OE.......................

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: I want to go to Senator Dave Sharma now who is the former ambassador to Israel for Australia, to talk more about this Palestinian recognition. Dave, good to have you on this morning.

DAVE SHARMA: Good morning, Stephen, glad to join you.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: I want to touch on something that you posted on your X account., saying Labour claims its decision will contribute to international momentum towards a two state solution, a ceasefire in Gaza and release of the hostages. In fact, the consequences will be the exact opposite. Explain that to us.

DAVE SHARMA: Yeah, so look, I think it's an important point to understand because I think a lot of people naturally, you know, think this idea might be good if it helps bring peace to it. But what it does is it rewards Hamas for its terrorist acts. For the 7th of October, Hamas is already, you know, proclaiming that all this wave of recognition is because of their military successes, if you like, in the terrorist attacks at 7 October. It makes them less likely to reach a ceasefire deal because as far as they're concerned, regardless of the harm that's being done to their civilian population, they are making political gains and organisational gains, and it makes a two state solution less likely because in terms of internal Palestinian politics, it looks like Hamas's path, the path of violence and terrorism and extreme, is the way to get results as opposed to the path of diplomacy and negotiation and moderation. And that's why I think this decision is so damaging.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: And it's somewhat tokenistic too because, I mean, and I've been talking about this all morning, the requirements of what makes up a state just don't exist. Who actually runs this new state of Palestine?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, that's quite true and it's always been Australian practise that we recognise states, not governments. We recognise states as a matter of fact. So if a state has a defined territory, a permanent population, and a government, then we will say we can recognise it. Now, the Palestinian territories do not have a defined territory. The borders are still in dispute, or yet to be negotiated. They don't have a single government. You've got Hamas in Gaza, you've got the Palestinian Authority in the west bank and you've got a whole bunch of other militant organisations. This is not a state and sort of hoping it is or wishing it is does not make it so. This is a case of diplomatic wishful thinking.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: I mean, I'm concerned about Israel's response to this. I mean, Benjamin Netanyahu has been rather scathing in and of itself in his current comments. But what does this do to our relationship with what was once our trusted partner in the region?

DAVE SHARMA: Look, I think it fundamentally recasts that relationship and the truth is that there'll be no going back from this. I mean we will still have diplomatic relations with Israel and we'll still cooperate on certain issues. But I think the trust and closeness that we've historically enjoyed, and that's true of both Labor and Liberal governments in Australia, is no longer there. We usually in the past stood quite closely alongside the United States when it came to issues in the Middle East. And obviously this is an area where we have a fundamental disagreement with the United States as well and our fundamental difference in approach.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: There was a response to your tweet this morning. It said Albo's attempt at a two state solution is at least an attempt. It's clear now that neither the US nor Israel have been genuine about a two state solution. Netanyahu has said as much. But I mean Israel has offered, there have been, proposals put on the table well over decades now that have been rejected by the Palestinian side.

DAVE SHARMA: They have.I didn't read that comment. But it's fundamentally not true. I mean, the US has mediated a number of efforts and Israel has anticipated a number of efforts. And historically the pattern has been that the Palestinian side has walked away from the moon. The last major effort was during the Obama administration. I was the ambassador to Israel then. The two sides came quite close. And then what happened was Hamas launched a series of terrorist attacks in the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority withdrew from negotiations and they never progressed any further. I mean the pattern here has always been that Hamas over the last 30 years now has figuratively blown up any prospects of peace by any time negotiations are making progress or getting close and they're worried that they will become a marginalised political actor. They unleash a wave of violence to destroy the prospects of any negotiated outcome.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: One of the assurances the Prime Minister says he received from Mahmoud Abbas, the leader of the Palestinian Authority, was that there would be free and fair elections. I hear a lot of people saying that if the elections were actually held, Hamas would take control of the West Bank as well. Is that your reading of this?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, first of all, Mahmoud Abbas is 20 years now into a four year term. Tells how often there are free and fair elections. But the truth is, I mean, I don't see how they could conduct elections in Gaza. I mean the Palestinian Authority is not present or representative in Gaza. And, yes, there is a real risk that, you know, a group like Hamas or a similar extremist group would do very well in elections and possibly win power. And how would that then sit with Albanese's insistence that Hamas can play no role in the future Palestinian state? How would that be reconciled? I don't know.

STEPHEN CENATIEMPO: I don't. Well, I don't think it can. Dave, I really appreciate you talking to us this morning. Thanks for your time.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks for having me on.

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