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Transcript

Topics: Iranian Ambassador expelled, IRGC terror listing

E&OE.......................

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LAURA JAYES: And joining me live now is Liberal Senator and former Australian Ambassador to Israel, Dave Sharma. Dave, thanks so much for your time. Of course, this was, you know, it's not a shock, is it, that, you know, Iran has been acting through proxies for decades when it comes to attacks on Israel and the Jewish and Israeli diaspora. But it is shocking that they've used criminals, sometimes pretty dumb ones I might say, to, to really try and unpick social cohesion here in Australia.

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, this is a shocking attack. I mean Iran is in the business of exporting terrorism. That's basically their state model. But to see them, you know, a foreign government, ferment and support attacks on Australian soil against Australian citizens in a way designed to undermine Australian values. I mean that's, you know, in international relations terms this is about as serious and grave as you can get. And, you know, the government should be taking this issue with the utmost seriousness. I think the steps they've announced to date are welcome, if overdue, but they should also be looking at taking further action.

LAURA JAYES: I believe as a former diplomat, Dave, you know how important it is to certainly have a presence, and even with countries that you don't agree with or endorse to keep those lines of communication open so you can advocate. And Penny Wong has made those signals yesterday and again this morning. So when would have been the right time? You know, we heard there from Jane Hume and you're right, there were Liberal Party committees that spoke about the concerns expressed by the Iranian diaspora, to this particular group, the IRGC. But is it difficult for a government to act and make this move in expelling diplomats, something we haven't done since after World War II, without the evidence that ASIO presented yesterday?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I'd say a number of things. Obviously, you know, I'm not privy to the ASIO evidence or the ASIO inquiry that's been ongoing, but ASIO has said publicly now on at least a couple of occasions over the past year that named Iran as a, as an actor that was, you know, a country of concern, a country whose behaviour was of concern in Australia. So that is on the public record. The Senate inquiry to which you refer, heard from a number of Iranian diaspora groups who have, you know, gave firsthand accounts of harassment, and intimidation of themselves or their families back in Iran by, you know, agents of the Iranian state. And then we've also had the Iranian ambassador here interfering in a quite unacceptable way in domestic political debate. In Australia and basically fanning the flames of anti Semitism, which is not proper conduct for a diplomat, or an ambassador, certainly. And I think, you know, for those reasons, I think there has been a pretty substantial case here for some time. Bear in mind also that the IRGC was listed as a terrorist organisation in the US a couple of years ago, in Canada, last year. I mean, you know, Australia is not alone here. International partners of ours have been grappling with this and we clearly share intelligence and assessments with those partners.

LAURA JAYES: Yeah. Right. So you're, you're saying the IRGC should have been declared like America did a couple of years ago, but the timing of the expulsion of diplomats is probably about right?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I would say that, you know, I'm always of the view that you should try and preserve diplomatic relations for as long as you can. But look, part of the compact of that issue, like, is that the diplomats in your country are not actively seeking to undermine your country. You know, that's the basis of the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations and other international instruments that govern a diplomatic presence. And I think the Iranian ambassador in Australia and the coalition said this at the time had been, you know, exceeding the boundaries of his normal role or his proper role. And I think that gave us cause to act some time ago. But clearly now that, you know, the Iranian embassy, and this is the risk with diplomatic premises, if they actively used to undermine your own country, then of course you cannot tolerate it, regardless of how desirable it might be to keep the channels of communication open.

LAURA JAYES: So do we have, are you saying there was evidence that the ambassador was moving, well, acting beyond his remit, let's say, before we had this ASIO assessment? Well, the PM got it a day before us. Was there evidence of that?

DAVE SHARMA: I would say based on his public remarks. So not of his active involvement in this, in the attacks on…

LAURA JAYES: But based on his public remarks, you think there were grounds for expulsion a lot earlier?

DAVE SHARMA: I believe so, yes. And I believe, look, at the very least, I mean, he was called in by the Department of Foreign affairs and Trade. I think on one occasion, the Israeli ambassador is being called in more times, strangely enough, by the Department of Foreign affairs and Trade than the Iranian ambassador has been. But the Iranian ambassador had, you know, said things that are completely at odds with Australian foreign policy, but also constituted an interference in our domestic politics. And that's a no go area for an ambassador. And I think for that reason there was definitely cause to act before the revelations of yesterday.

LAURA JAYES: ASIO, obviously an incredible organisation, and this has obviously been a painstaking investigation to unveil these links. But do you think Israeli intelligence would have been part of it?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I can't comment directly and I don't know directly, but I would say that Israel has been a trusted intelligence partner. It's publicly known that Israeli intelligence helped us foil the Etihad bomb plot of 2017. And we work very closely with them on security threats to both of our countries in the Middle East and in Australia. And ASIO, as is normal for an intelligence agency, has close relationships with a number of partners, not only other Five Eyes countries, but elsewhere afield. So, you know, I would expect that ASIO was bringing all the resources to bear on this investigation, including, you know, links with foreign partners.

LAURA JAYES: Mm. So what you're saying is it would have been very unusual for Israel to have not provided information that they were privy to?

DAVE SHARMA: Well, look, I certainly know that if Israel was aware of threats to Australia and Australian interests and Australian security, then Israel would pass us that information. And that has happened in the past, and that's been a long standing basis of our relationship. Just as we would if we were aware of threats to Israel or Israeli interests, you know, we would share that with them. That's the nature of our security partnership with them.

LAURA JAYES: Dave Sharma, always good to talk to you. Thank you.

DAVE SHARMA: Thanks so much, Laura.

[ENDS]

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